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turd ferguson
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Postby turd ferguson » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:49 am

Again, please don't flame me, but in criminal justice circles "intellectual disabilities" can be a codeword for fetal alcohol syndrome. Not an excuse by any stretch but it explains a lot of these behaviours. I've appeared many, many times in provincial court in Winnipeg (seems like a lifetime ago now) and seen the issues firsthand. The crowns are good people doing a very difficult job and there's only so much they can do with kids who are born with two strikes on them and aren't being raised properly, if at all.
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Postby hyajil » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:54 am

But what can people do Mike? It seems to me like there's an awful lot of armchair quarterbacking and hand-wringing going on and no leadership towards finding solutions (or at least change in a positive direction) from either the community or the justice system.

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Postby mcshame » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:55 am

So if they have intellectual disabilities, and they are a threat to the public, they should be off the street. What is it going to take, a dead runner?

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hmacdonald
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Postby hmacdonald » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:56 am

I wondered if that was the case Mike. Unfortunately I'd be willing to bet that the parents have a few strikes against them too, and it becomes a vicious cycle. Sad really, but it doesn't help the guy that is recovering from head injuries.

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Postby BaldGuy » Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:39 am

abhainn wrote:I just read snipits in the Free Press this morning, but are these not the same little s***s that stole a couple of Escalades at Polo Park last week, smashed them a couple of other cars, were arrested and released to their parents (I use the term lightly) because they had no previous records????

I love our justice system....

Yes, they are. Nice, huh?
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Postby waynerdog » Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:09 pm

mcshame wrote:So if they have intellectual disabilities, and they are a threat to the public, they should be off the street. What is it going to take, a dead runner?


Damn straight.

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The Joggler
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Postby The Joggler » Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:28 pm

We runners have enough trouble trying to avoid getting hit by cars that aren't trying specifically to hit us.

And now for a little side rant: All the news articles refer to the runners as "joggers". I gave them the benefit of the doubt in my news blurb for Captivate Network and called them "runners". I don't know a single person who runs – however slowly or casually – who calls him or herself a "jogger". To me, it's a term left over from the '70s that evokes images of sweatpants and headbands.

Of course, being The Joggler, I'm a bit of a hypocrite on this matter. But The Ruggler just doesn't have the same ring to it.

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Postby dgrant » Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:44 pm

mike runs wrote:Again, please don't flame me, but in criminal justice circles "intellectual disabilities" can be a codeword for fetal alcohol syndrome. Not an excuse by any stretch but it explains a lot of these behaviours. I've appeared many, many times in provincial court in Winnipeg (seems like a lifetime ago now) and seen the issues firsthand. The crowns are good people doing a very difficult job and there's only so much they can do with kids who are born with two strikes on them and aren't being raised properly, if at all.


Wise words.

Obviously there must be a reasonable middle ground. I would hate to regress to a US style justice system where they execute people with IQs of 70 and give life sentences to people for crimes they committed when they were 12...

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Postby abhainn » Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:07 pm

I'm not so much worried about regressing to a US style justice system as I am about the fact that what we have right now (justice and social) is so obviously inadequate and useless. It really is as good (or bad) as the parents of these kids who have either lost total control, or the more likely reality that they don't really care.
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Postby run4cardio » Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:29 pm

abhainn wrote:I'm not so much worried about regressing to a US style justice system as I am about the fact that what we have right now (justice and social) is so obviously inadequate and useless. It really is as good (or bad) as the parents of these kids who have either lost total control, or the more likely reality that they don't really care.


I think that is really the issue here. To me our system appears to be based on the premise that all people are intrinsically "good" and if they lapse they can be guided back into being "good", or in the case of juveniles only need some TLC and proper guidance to make them "good" people. These kids don't fit this profile as there appears to be a lack of parental leadership combined with issues like Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, and a justice system that cannot cope with them. I believe that the problem with the justice system is that these kids are smart enough to know how to play the system so they will never be held truely accountable for their actions. I have no idea how to correct this failing of the system - although I could suggest that after a predetermined number of convictions as a juvenile any further prosecutions would be in Adult Court. If you know how to play the system then you understand the concept of trial and punishment.

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Postby rune163 » Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:42 pm

to blame this on a rough life or poor upbringing shouldn't matter in the fact that they should be (i) jailed for life or (ii) hung on the courthouse lawn. if you can't realize that running someone down in a car you stole is wrong regardless of what bad hand you've been dealt then your a waste and a threat to society. another option should be to let the victim run the accused over in a car, maybe that will get through to them and set an example. canada's justice system is useless and way too lenient (sp??) these kids will get three good meals a day, and probably play xbox or something in the jailhouse lounge and get out soon enough. kids that behave and follow the law don't have some of the things these guys will get in youth prison.

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Postby seuss » Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:51 pm

ultrarune wrote: if you can't realize that running someone down in a car you stole is wrong regardless of what bad hand you've been dealt then your a waste and a threat to society.


to get back to Mike's point: people with Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorders can't realize that because the part of the brain that allows you to is irreparably damaged.
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Postby rune163 » Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:56 pm

seuss wrote:
ultrarune wrote: if you can't realize that running someone down in a car you stole is wrong regardless of what bad hand you've been dealt then your a waste and a threat to society.


to get back to Mike's point: people with Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorders can't realize that because the part of the brain that allows you to is irreparably damaged.


so if these people with FASD can't understand that mowing someone down in a car you stole 5 minutes earlier is a bad thing why aren't they in an institution as they are a danger to public safety. if that's their arguement fair enough, why are we putting people's lives at risk knowing this can happen? i bet if i ran them over in a car they would understand. sorry i just don't buy that having FASD makes you think stealing a vehicle and killing someone is acceptable or the norm in everyday life.

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Postby mcshame » Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:59 pm

ultrarune wrote:
seuss wrote:
ultrarune wrote: if you can't realize that running someone down in a car you stole is wrong regardless of what bad hand you've been dealt then your a waste and a threat to society.


to get back to Mike's point: people with Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorders can't realize that because the part of the brain that allows you to is irreparably damaged.


so if these people with FASD can't understand that mowing someone down in a car you stole 5 minutes earlier is a bad thing why aren't they in an institution as they are a danger to public safety. if that's their arguement fair enough, why are we putting people's lives at risk knowing this can happen? i bet if i ran them over in a car they would understand. sorry i just don't buy that having FASD makes you think stealing a vehicle and killing someone is acceptable or the norm in everyday life.


The key is if this has happened that they are determined not to be able to know right from wrong, they should be off the streets as they are a threat to society. It should be as simple as that.

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Postby ultraslacker » Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:06 pm

mcshame wrote:
ultrarune wrote:
seuss wrote:
ultrarune wrote: if you can't realize that running someone down in a car you stole is wrong regardless of what bad hand you've been dealt then your a waste and a threat to society.


to get back to Mike's point: people with Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorders can't realize that because the part of the brain that allows you to is irreparably damaged.


so if these people with FASD can't understand that mowing someone down in a car you stole 5 minutes earlier is a bad thing why aren't they in an institution as they are a danger to public safety. if that's their arguement fair enough, why are we putting people's lives at risk knowing this can happen? i bet if i ran them over in a car they would understand. sorry i just don't buy that having FASD makes you think stealing a vehicle and killing someone is acceptable or the norm in everyday life.


The key is if this has happened that they are determined not to be able to know right from wrong, they should be off the streets as they are a threat to society. It should be as simple as that.


FAS is definitely no excuse. I know plenty of children and adults with FAS of different degrees and they DO know right from wrong. They certainly have a struggle to go through life "normally", as many things are more difficult for them than for others, but no one can say that just because someone has FAS, they are excused from wrong actions--that's just a cop out.
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Postby abhainn » Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:06 pm

seuss wrote:
ultrarune wrote: if you can't realize that running someone down in a car you stole is wrong regardless of what bad hand you've been dealt then your a waste and a threat to society.


to get back to Mike's point: people with Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorders can't realize that because the part of the brain that allows you to is irreparably damaged.


Depends on the severity. Some kids have it worse than others.
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Postby seuss » Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:10 pm

klewlis wrote:
mcshame wrote:
ultrarune wrote:
seuss wrote:
ultrarune wrote: if you can't realize that running someone down in a car you stole is wrong regardless of what bad hand you've been dealt then your a waste and a threat to society.


to get back to Mike's point: people with Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorders can't realize that because the part of the brain that allows you to is irreparably damaged.


so if these people with FASD can't understand that mowing someone down in a car you stole 5 minutes earlier is a bad thing why aren't they in an institution as they are a danger to public safety. if that's their arguement fair enough, why are we putting people's lives at risk knowing this can happen? i bet if i ran them over in a car they would understand. sorry i just don't buy that having FASD makes you think stealing a vehicle and killing someone is acceptable or the norm in everyday life.


The key is if this has happened that they are determined not to be able to know right from wrong, they should be off the streets as they are a threat to society. It should be as simple as that.


FAS is definitely no excuse. I know plenty of children and adults with FAS of different degrees and they DO know right from wrong. They certainly have a struggle to go through life "normally", as many things are more difficult for them than for others, but no one can say that just because someone has FAS, they are excused from wrong actions--that's just a cop out.


i don't think anyone was saying they should be "excused". my point was that we can't expect people who don't have a certain capacity to act in the same way as those who do have that capacity.

i am fully aware that FASD is a spectrum disorder and that there are differing degrees of damage.

but to call someone who is the way they are through no fault of their own a "waste" is not acceptable.
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Postby ultraslacker » Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:13 pm

seuss wrote:but to call someone who is the way they are through no fault of their own a "waste" is not acceptable.


oh yes. I definitely agree.
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Postby turd ferguson » Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:18 pm

klewlis wrote:
mcshame wrote:
ultrarune wrote:
seuss wrote:
ultrarune wrote: if you can't realize that running someone down in a car you stole is wrong regardless of what bad hand you've been dealt then your a waste and a threat to society.


to get back to Mike's point: people with Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorders can't realize that because the part of the brain that allows you to is irreparably damaged.


so if these people with FASD can't understand that mowing someone down in a car you stole 5 minutes earlier is a bad thing why aren't they in an institution as they are a danger to public safety. if that's their arguement fair enough, why are we putting people's lives at risk knowing this can happen? i bet if i ran them over in a car they would understand. sorry i just don't buy that having FASD makes you think stealing a vehicle and killing someone is acceptable or the norm in everyday life.


The key is if this has happened that they are determined not to be able to know right from wrong, they should be off the streets as they are a threat to society. It should be as simple as that.


FAS is definitely no excuse. I know plenty of children and adults with FAS of different degrees and they DO know right from wrong. They certainly have a struggle to go through life "normally", as many things are more difficult for them than for others, but no one can say that just because someone has FAS, they are excused from wrong actions--that's just a cop out.


I'm not saying its an excuse either - just that different motivations apply, what you or I would think of as deterrence woudn't necessarily apply, impulse control is different, etc. My point is that if you're not wired right for impulse control or empathy, the sorts of things the justice system can deal out (jail, probation) won't work.
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Postby ultraslacker » Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:42 pm

mike runs wrote:I'm not saying its an excuse either - just that different motivations apply, what you or I would think of as deterrence woudn't necessarily apply, impulse control is different, etc. My point is that if you're not wired right for impulse control or empathy, the sorts of things the justice system can deal out (jail, probation) won't work.


which brings us back to the bigger issue, which is the fact that the ball has been dropped--by the parents AND by society...

example: we have a kid at work right now who suffers from a number of mental health and developmental problems. He comes from a family where the step-father is an abusive alcoholic and the mother blames all the family's problems on this child. EVERYTHING is his fault. He was badly abused at home until finally his mother ASKED for him to be removed by child welfare because she believed that the family would be happy without him. (Imagine being the one kid in the family that isn't loved???) Now the mother has decided that she wants him to come home... so the child welfare worker has set up a whole bunch of HOME visits... ie: we are sending the kid back into the abusive environment for visits... to serve what purpose? making the mother feel better. The child's best interests aren't even a consideration. When I found this out my first reaction was "what the hell is going through the child worker's head??" But we have no choice in the matter and have to do as the worker says, since they are the legal guardians. After the first visit the child came back extremely upset and volatile. This morning he was shaking and said that he couldn't tell us about the visits.

so, two major problems here - the family, and the system.

And those of us who actually know and care about the kid are helpless. All we can do is work with him the best we can and hope to make some sort of positive difference for him. :(
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Postby hmacdonald » Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:55 pm

klewlis wrote:
mike runs wrote:I'm not saying its an excuse either - just that different motivations apply, what you or I would think of as deterrence woudn't necessarily apply, impulse control is different, etc. My point is that if you're not wired right for impulse control or empathy, the sorts of things the justice system can deal out (jail, probation) won't work.


which brings us back to the bigger issue, which is the fact that the ball has been dropped--by the parents AND by society...

example: we have a kid at work right now who suffers from a number of mental health and developmental problems. He comes from a family where the step-father is an abusive alcoholic and the mother blames all the family's problems on this child. EVERYTHING is his fault. He was badly abused at home until finally his mother ASKED for him to be removed by child welfare because she believed that the family would be happy without him. (Imagine being the one kid in the family that isn't loved???) Now the mother has decided that she wants him to come home... so the child welfare worker has set up a whole bunch of HOME visits... ie: we are sending the kid back into the abusive environment for visits... to serve what purpose? making the mother feel better. The child's best interests aren't even a consideration. When I found this out my first reaction was "what the hell is going through the child worker's head??" But we have no choice in the matter and have to do as the worker says, since they are the legal guardians. After the first visit the child came back extremely upset and volatile. This morning he was shaking and said that he couldn't tell us about the visits.

so, two major problems here - the family, and the system.

And those of us who actually know and care about the kid are helpless. All we can do is work with him the best we can and hope to make some sort of positive difference for him. :(


That really, really, really sucks. For the kids, and for the people that work with him and are powerless to do anything about it.

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Postby ultraslacker » Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:01 pm

hmacdonald wrote:That really, really, really sucks. For the kids, and for the people that work with him and are powerless to do anything about it.


we're trying--my supervisor has been on the phone with the worker trying to talk some sense into her. She finally agreed to scale it from 3 visits per week to 1 visit, and in a neutral location (instead of in the home). That is an improvement but... it is a battle that we are CONSTANTLY fighting with the workers... we have another teenage girl who is doing VERY well with us--learning lots, growing, improving, and maturing, and on the path to independence. Her mother is attempting to sabotage it (the kid is healthier than the mom in this case) and the worker is allowing the mother to do it. SO stupid. It's a never-ending issue.

And then we see stories like this where kids are doing stupid and dangerous things, and it's so frustrating!!
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First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do. ~Epictetus

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Postby McBoom » Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:16 pm

I don't believe the original newspaper article actually said that they suffered from FASD

I would like to know when their hearing is. Not to know their names or hear the details, but to gather our community to allow the accused to see what impact their action actually has had. Unfortunately, that information is also protected. The court room is closed and the information is not availble when or where the hearing will take place

Then again, in the case of the "lost" youth would they really understand such a gathering?
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Agent Provocateur
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Postby Agent Provocateur » Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:33 pm

Let's not lose sight of the fact that wile Canada's justice system needs a revamp, the media do not report successful rehabilitation stories. They will point out all the failures without celebrating the successes.
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Postby BaldGuy » Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:11 pm

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