Too Young To Run? Children Marathoners

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Pat Menzies
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Postby Pat Menzies » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:05 pm

If you are going to do a marathon without racing it and against the rules, why not just do a long training run? Is there a need to prove that you really did it by having your name in the official results?

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Run26.2
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Postby Run26.2 » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:06 pm

MoeMan wrote:
Yes, I lied - I wrote that Arrow was 18 on the race forms. My thoughts on this are that it is just for thier own protection. .

Moe, following your postings over the last 2 years about Arrow and yourself, I just know he is an outstanding young fellow!

Here's my own $0.02.....I would not want to lie about one of my daughters so they could participate in an activity.......I know it's a little white lie, but to me it just doesn't sit right, and in my opinion would send the wrong message to my kids.....just my opinion

Good luck to the both of you in your running exploits!
"...twenty miles of hope, six miles of truth..."
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MoeMan
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Postby MoeMan » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:15 pm

Pat Menzies wrote:If you are going to do a marathon without racing it and against the rules, why not just do a long training run? Is there a need to prove that you really did it by having your name in the official results?


Hi Pat
Alot of people run thier first marathons "just to finish". I think you know that. Why dosen't everyone just run 42.2 Ks around thier neighbourhood and not sign up for a race. He did the training (14 months) and wanted the whole expierence.
M :D E
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MoeMan
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Postby MoeMan » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:19 pm

Run26.2 wrote:
MoeMan wrote:
Yes, I lied - I wrote that Arrow was 18 on the race forms. My thoughts on this are that it is just for thier own protection. .

Moe, following your postings over the last 2 years about Arrow and yourself, I just know he is an outstanding young fellow!

Here's my own $0.02.....I would not want to lie about one of my daughters so they could participate in an activity.......I know it's a little white lie, but to me it just doesn't sit right, and in my opinion would send the wrong message to my kids.....just my opinion

Good luck to the both of you in your running exploits!


Hi Run26.2
I do teach Arrow not to lie. Sometimes in life we have to though. I talked to him about the age-lie. At the end of the Toronto Marathon a race director was very pleased that Arrow finished the race. He offered to place Arrow's photo on the web site. I declined.
M :D E

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Postby turd ferguson » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:19 pm

Moe, I think you have perfect perspective on this. I'm glad you joined the discussion.
"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." - Douglas Adams

Pat Menzies
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Postby Pat Menzies » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:25 pm

Sometimes we just have to wait if there are rules though. There are plenty of other age limited activities.
The marathon experience can wait just like everything else.

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Postby MoeMan » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:26 pm

Pat Menzies wrote:Sometimes we just have to wait if there are rules though. There are plenty of other age limited activities.
The marathon experience can wait just like everything else.


Mother Teresa,
Sometimes we don't have to wait, we can just lie.
M :D E

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Postby dgrant » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:48 pm

Pat Menzies wrote:If you are going to do a marathon without racing it and against the rules, why not just do a long training run? Is there a need to prove that you really did it by having your name in the official results?


Just as a bit of background that might help explain things (for anyone just reading about Moe and Arrow's marathons for the first time)... It's important to note that these two didn't just up and decide to run a marathon while they were still struggling with 5K runs or anything. They gradually worked their way up the distance ladder until 42.2K was the next logical goal.

I'll let others argue the legality of a minor entering the race and all that business, but I'd definitely vouch for the fact that athletically they did things the 'right way'.

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Postby MoeMan » Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:56 pm

Thanx Dave.

If it make any difference, I ran both marathons right beside Arrow.
I had bus tickets in my pocket if he wanted to stop at anytime.
M :D E

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Pat Menzies
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Postby Pat Menzies » Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:48 pm

MoeMan wrote:
Pat Menzies wrote:Sometimes we just have to wait if there are rules though. There are plenty of other age limited activities.
The marathon experience can wait just like everything else.


Mother Teresa,
Sometimes we don't have to wait, we can just lie.

I didn't even realize that Mother Theresa ever drove a car or bought beer and cigarettes.

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Postby HCcD » Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:56 pm

In the end, whether I/we agree or not, eventually it is the decision of the parent, the legal guardian who makes a judgement call, and in will be the one who is responsible and accountable and must live with the consequences, whatever they may be ...

These are just, apparently, "Rules and Regulations" as stipulated by the Race Director and whether or not he/she/they opt to respect those themselves by policing it, is their decision ... At MCM, for example, they posted so many times that ... Absolutely No Electronics, Ipods, Cell Phones, etc., will be tolerated, on all their mailings and updates, etc., yet there was a plentiful of people wearing them in the corals and on the course ... and, the ironic twist was that Ms Utah, their covergirl, was actually wearing one in the photo from the previous year ... :shock: :shock: :?

I guess the question we gotta ask ourselves is, that one has been asked repeatedly on this Forum, as of late ....

How does this affect me ???

Does someone wearing an Ipod affect me ??

How does a minor in a marathon affect me ???

In the end, it doesn't, and I / We must learn to live with it and get on with it ..... Afterall, it is only a "Rule" and not a "Law" that can be enforceable in a Court of Law, or is it ??? :think::think::think:

We may or may not agree with the decisions/actions made by other people, but, in the end, we will still continue respect that person ...
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Stephan
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Postby Stephan » Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:45 pm

Bah Humbug!!!!!

Let them run!!!! For crying out loud, if a kid runs a marathon, it's probably not an ego trip...it's because HE CAN!!!!!!!

Do you think Wayne Gretzky got good at Hockey at the age of 18???? Gimme a break, kids are endurant and humans are very capable of amazing feats. This debate in a time where 80% of youth is overweight....sheesh.

We should encourage physical events and goal setting. I love it when people say some people run marathons for an ego trip...YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT!!!!!!

What do you think makes us finish the last 6 miles?? Healthy Ego is essential to succeed. My ego has only gotten better since I started running and setting and accomplishing goals. I think the real problem with ego trips are the ones who feel threatened by more and more people accomplishing what they did in the past.

I find that most people who do not have a healthy ego never accomplish anything and love to tear down others.

They usually become reporters.....

Let the kids run!!!!!!

I like how they say running marathons not properly trained can cause permanent damage......the fact is, if someone runs a full not properly trained, they will either decide to train better for the next one or they will never do one again.

The permanent damage,.....probably just a bruised ego and very sore legs and toenails for a few weeks. Big deal!!!!!

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Jwolf
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Postby Jwolf » Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:50 pm

Stephan wrote:I like how they say running marathons not properly trained can cause permanent damage....The permanent damage,.....probably just a bruised ego and very sore legs and toenails for a few weeks. Big deal!!!!!


With children who haven't finished growing, there is research evidence for the real risk of permanent damage from lots of distance mileage. Do we let children do other risky behaviours that could seriously damage them in the future? I hope not.

I'd also like to think there's more to wanting to do a marathon than an ego trip. I don't have a huge ego to feed, but I do get a lot of satisfaction out of my training. That's not exactly the same thing though.

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Postby MoeMan » Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:02 pm

Do a search on Kids and Marathons and you will also find research evidence that says there is no problem with healthy kids running.
Last edited by MoeMan on Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Stephan
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Postby Stephan » Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:25 pm

Jwolf wrote:
Stephan wrote:I like how they say running marathons not properly trained can cause permanent damage....The permanent damage,.....probably just a bruised ego and very sore legs and toenails for a few weeks. Big deal!!!!!


With children who haven't finished growing, there is research evidence for the real risk of permanent damage from lots of distance mileage. Do we let children do other risky behaviours that could seriously damage them in the future? I hope not.

I'd also like to think there's more to wanting to do a marathon than an ego trip. I don't have a huge ego to feed, but I do get a lot of satisfaction out of my training. That's not exactly the same thing though.


Research smesearch, I think the positives far outweigh the negatives, we have to be very carefull with research because society likes to generalize things and then all of a sudden "running is bad for kids"

I think there is a very small amout of children who can run marathons, the ones who do can probably do it without damage. I have never heard of, met or seen anyone with health problems because they ran too much as a kid.....but...I know tons who are fat, lazy and have health problems because they did not run or exercize enough while younger.

As far as research goes......that's exactly what it is....a bunch of white trench coats around a treadmill and a clipboard........"hmmmm if 12 year olds run too much they can hurt normal growth.....hmmm that's it"

....sorry...I just think that's funny.
Last edited by Stephan on Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby trixiee » Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:25 pm

Pat Menzies wrote:
MoeMan wrote:
Pat Menzies wrote:Sometimes we just have to wait if there are rules though. There are plenty of other age limited activities.
The marathon experience can wait just like everything else.


Mother Teresa,
Sometimes we don't have to wait, we can just lie.

I didn't even realize that Mother Theresa ever drove a car or bought beer and cigarettes.


Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone
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Jwolf
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Postby Jwolf » Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:05 pm

Stephan wrote:As far as research goes......that's exactly what it is....a bunch of white trench coats around a treadmill and a clipboard........"hmmmm if 12 year olds run too much they can hurt normal growth.....hmmm that's it"


Excues me? There's a lot more to scientific research than this. But since you are obviously right, I won't try to give you any sources.

All I'm saying is that responsible adults can make any darn decision that they want about their health. We shouldn't trust that minors have judgement to make these decisions for themselves. That's already taken care of by parents having to sign waivers for their kids under 18, but signing that waiver means you are accepting responsiblity for someone else's health. And you should know the facts.

I also think it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that the altenative to encouraging maraton running is childhood obesity.

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Postby Stephan » Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:15 pm

Jwolf wrote:
Stephan wrote:As far as research goes......that's exactly what it is....a bunch of white trench coats around a treadmill and a clipboard........"hmmmm if 12 year olds run too much they can hurt normal growth.....hmmm that's it"


Excues me? There's a lot more to scientific research than this. But since you are obviously right, I won't try to give you any sources.

All I'm saying is that responsible adults can make any darn decision that they want about their health. We shouldn't trust that minors have judgement to make these decisions for themselves. That's already taken care of by parents having to sign waivers for their kids under 18, but signing that waiver means you are accepting responsiblity for someone else's health. And you should know the facts.

I also think it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that the altenative to encouraging maraton running is childhood obesity.


C'mon Jennifer, after all these years you should be used to my tongue in cheek remarks. All I'm saying is kids running long distance races is not the norm and therefore not a big deal. I dont know of any parents who push their kids to running marathons, it's a rare thing and the ones who do, are predisposed to do it safely.

Research also shows many skateboarders break bones but I will never stop my kid from skateboarding if he wants to.


It's time to get the kids working the plough in the fields too!!!!!

:P

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Postby rune163 » Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:25 am

[quote="Portentous"]Interesting comments vis-a-vis other sports. And as someone mentioned privately some parents might lie on the entrance form and claim their child is old enough to race. My opinion is that as long as the races discourage young runners, they've been responsible. quote]

why should races deter younger entrants????? i would love for someone to argue that its safer for 96 year old fauja singh to run a marathon than a teenager. there is NO proven medical bases to say that running mega distances as a teen will hamper your growth. of course it will happen in a few cases. there are middle aged people that shouldn't be running for medical reasons but they do and no one pipes in or brings up debate for them.
if a young person willingly wants to run that distance and enjoys it everyone else should just shut up and clap for them like they do everyone else running by. if you have a beef with it keep your own kid from doing it but spare the rest of us your two cents thinking you know everything there is about the science and health of running. support dudes, support, that goes for the young ones too.
maybe the world would be better if the teens trying to run marathons gave it up for guns, crack and crime.....

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Postby DougG » Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:18 am

Just as a bit of background that might help explain things (for anyone just reading about Moe and Arrow's marathons for the first time)... It's important to note that these two didn't just up and decide to run a marathon while they were still struggling with 5K runs or anything. They gradually worked their way up the distance ladder until 42.2K was the next logical goal.

I'll let others argue the legality of a minor entering the race and all that business, but I'd definitely vouch for the fact that athletically they did things the 'right way'.


Excellent points Dave.
2014
injured
2013
Snowflake 10k....stopped at 5k
Rest of the year a write off because of injury.
2012
Snowflake 10k Jan 1 done
Run 4 Kids 10k Jan 7 done
Harry's Spring Run Off 8k. April 8 a disaster, but I finished
Centurion 50k at Horseshoe Valley (cycling) done
Centurion 50 miler at Blue Mountain (cycling) done.....barely!
Snowflake 5k, Dec 16 - done
2011
Harry Rosen 8k. April. done
Rotary 5k fun run. May. done
CANI 10k. June. done
Canada Day 10k. July. done
Barrie Waterfront 5k. Aug. done
CANI 10 k. Oct. done
Base Borden Army Run 10k. done

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Portentous
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Postby Portentous » Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:00 pm

MoeMan wrote:[Port, I may not be a perfect parent, but I am not a stupid one.}

My son Arrow started running 5Ks at school when he was 11 years old.
We found that his talent in running was in longer distances like the 5K.

Arrow wanted to train more and try to get faster. I couldn't let him go out and run 5Ks by himself so I rode my bike beside him. I couldn't run 100 meters at the time. Soon Arrow was easily running 10Ks. I read as much as I could on running. I found RM while reading on RR. I never pressured Arrow to ever run. I actually started running beside him. My thought was that if he was going to do it I should know what he is going through.

Arrow trained carefully and with a sports Doctor's care. He slowly added kilometers to his/our LSDs. There were a few times that Arrow did not feel like running, I never pressured him. Arrow ran many 21Ks and a few 30Ks before running his marathons.

Yes, I lied - I wrote that Arrow was 18 on the race forms. My thoughts on this are that it is just for thier own protection. Kids get killed in school football, I knew that Arrow was physically/menatlly fit for this.
I ran every step of the way with him. We did not really race it. We came in together just under 5 hours.

It has been a year since those two marathons. We took a long break from running and Arrow is still on that break. I got back into it 3 months ago. I ask him each time before I leave for a run if he is coming ( I know the answer).

Kids go through stages or fads. Maybe running was just a phase for him. Maybe Arrow will 'catch' the run-bug again, his choice, I just want to be ready if he decides to get running.


Moe, honestly I had no idea/recollection of arrow running fulls. Not sure if you posted race reports or if I missed them. In any case, I think you are a great dad. I love the relationship you have with Arrow, and can only hope that my kids & I will be that close when they are older. But, I do think you made a mistake. As parents its our job to protect our kids from external forces, and often from themselves.

Although as Dave pointed out, and I couldn't agree more kids like Arrow are probably better off than many of the older fatter first timers out there barely surviving the ordeal at the limits of the time requirements.

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Portentous
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Postby Portentous » Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:11 pm

h
Last edited by Portentous on Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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MoeMan
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Postby MoeMan » Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:35 pm

Port = "...But, I do think you made a mistake. As parents its our job to protect our kids from external forces, and often from themselve..."

Kids in hockey
Kids in football
Kids in basketball
Kids in - well you get the idea

.
M :D E

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Postby rune163 » Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:06 pm

Portentous wrote:
ultrarune wrote:
Portentous wrote:Interesting comments vis-a-vis other sports. And as someone mentioned privately some parents might lie on the entrance form and claim their child is old enough to race. My opinion is that as long as the races discourage young runners, they've been responsible. quote]

why should races deter younger entrants????? i would love for someone to argue that its safer for 96 year old fauja singh to run a marathon than a teenager. there is NO proven medical bases to say that running mega distances as a teen will hamper your growth. of course it will happen in a few cases. there are middle aged people that shouldn't be running for medical reasons but they do and no one pipes in or brings up debate for them.
if a young person willingly wants to run that distance and enjoys it everyone else should just shut up and clap for them like they do everyone else running by. if you have a beef with it keep your own kid from doing it but spare the rest of us your two cents thinking you know everything there is about the science and health of running. support dudes, support, that goes for the young ones too.
maybe the world would be better if the teens trying to run marathons gave it up for guns, crack and crime.....


Wow, I wonder if I come off as such a jack-ass when I try to rile someone up? (yes, I know, I probably do... or worse.) No proven medical basis??? OK, how about common sense then. Or do you lack that? Some kids can obviously run a full. But IMO the risks are too great whether they be long term developmental injury or mental burnout. Getting kids to run is great, and I've been running with all of my nieces & nephews over the last few years and done several 5ks with them. But if the fear is childhood obesity then 5ks up to 21k should be more than enough without adding exponentially to the risks. And that goes for many of the 1st timer adults too.


not really a jackass just your opinion without bases or research to back it up. show me proof from a professional that points out that a teenager running a marathon will have an effect on that persons ability to develop normally. as i said there are cases where a teen shouldn't but there are also cases amongst middle agers as well, hence why we see people die in the middle of marathons! if a kid under there own thought and will wants to run a marathon who are you to say they shouldn't? i would guess contact football or even lacrosse would be harder on a childs body than running. i started young and had the University of Waterloo TRY to say that running ultras was unhealthy and they COULD NOT come up with any concrete evidence to show that it would be detrimental to growth. only to say you shouldn't that young. which brings me back to another point. why don't we tell old folks to stop running marathons? if they fell during a race they would probably shatter something, a kid would laugh, get up and run faster.

common sense says if they enjoy it and are happy with THEIR decision then the arm chair quarterbacks should shut up and mind there own business. how is your common sense compared to that? your opinion is your opinion but don't bring in common sense when you have zero research and proof to back it....

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Postby Portentous » Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:10 pm

Hmmmph.... As I was trying to do the gentlemanly thing and erased my post, you added more garbage. I'm not talking about kids in university. I'm talking about young teenagers or younger. Now perhaps you should shut the F up. Please. :P


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