Case for cross training-Real Numbers.

[runningman]

I have only run for a total of 1.5 hours since the Victoria marathon as I rehab my foot and decide to what extent I want to continue running and at what distances.

I have been doing alot of biking and alot of core work to keep in top shape.

Today I decided to do an experiment on the treadmill that mirrored the same experiment I did at the very peak of my marathon training.

I was pleasantly surprised at the results. At the top of my zone 1 or 164 heart rate, I am at the exact same speed as I was in September-8 mph. The difference is my body feels alot better now than it did in September.

Of course there will always be skeptics to cross training but for me it seems to be working.

[Tri_K]

I haven't run in over a month but have been doing cross fit with my trainer. I did hills the other night (I know, what a way to take on your first run after a month) and I ran with one of my usual running partners and was ahead of another one. I was also told that my form has significantly improved. There are definitely skeptics (Jwolf ) but I agree that I have certainly experienced the benefits of cross training.

[IronGoddess]

I didn't do any real long runs before the Victoria Half as I was busy with tri training and guess what... I ran a better race then I did in Vancouver. With all the training it really helped. My run was alot stronger not to much faster but it felt better

[horselady]

I concur with the benefits.
I find a feel alot better and am alot stronger with cycling and core work than I do with just running.
Thanks for posting your test!
Now am off for a run...and then spin tomorrow!

[fe.RMT]

I have only run for a total of 1.5 hours since the Victoria marathon as I rehab my foot and decide to what extent I want to continue running and at what distances.

I have been doing alot of biking and alot of core work to keep in top shape.

Today I decided to do an experiment on the treadmill that mirrored the same experiment I did at the very peak of my marathon training.

I was pleasantly surprised at the results. At the top of my zone 1 or 164 heart rate, I am at the exact same speed as I was in September-8 mph. The difference is my body feels alot better now than it did in September.

Of course there will always be skeptics to cross training but for me it seems to be working.

And remember, that is only one 'experiment' on one day. I'm going to assume that you were running more frequently during marathon training.

Part of 'being in shape' is repeatability.

[runningman]

I have only run for a total of 1.5 hours since the Victoria marathon as I rehab my foot and decide to what extent I want to continue running and at what distances.

I have been doing alot of biking and alot of core work to keep in top shape.

Today I decided to do an experiment on the treadmill that mirrored the same experiment I did at the very peak of my marathon training.

I was pleasantly surprised at the results. At the top of my zone 1 or 164 heart rate, I am at the exact same speed as I was in September-8 mph. The difference is my body feels alot better now than it did in September.

Of course there will always be skeptics to cross training but for me it seems to be working.

And remember, that is only one 'experiment' on one day. I'm going to assume that you were running more frequently during marathon training.

Part of 'being in shape' is repeatability.

This is the second time I did it with virtually identical results. I did not want to post anything after doing it just once.
I am not sure of your point of running more frequently or repeatability. I'm on the bike every day and do core work ever second day, if thats what you mean by repeatability. But I'm not sure what you mean.

[LadyV]

I have been doing alot of biking and alot of core work to keep in top shape.

This is very interesting - I am curious about the kind of cross training you did
How much time did you put into your cross-training every day?
Did you have long cross training days (meaning more than 90 minutes)? or more of 'high intensity' workouts

[runningman]

I have been doing alot of biking and alot of core work to keep in top shape.

This is very interesting - I am curious about the kind of cross training you did
How much time did you put into your cross-training every day?
Did you have long cross training days (meaning more than 90 minutes)? or more of 'high intensity' workouts

Thats the interesting part. I did do longer bike days of about 1 1/2 hours about 2 of every three weeks, but the bulk of my training was hard intervals because I get board on the spin bike unless I'm really pushing myself.
So I did alot of 4 minute intervals with 2-3 minutes rest. Those intervals were done at very high intensity. Close to my max HR and every interval I'd get it over 180, usually around 183. I also did one tempo type ride a week as well.

[eljeffe]

Ah the skeptics...

Good job Mike! Now get in the pool already!

[Jwolf]

I don't doubt that you can stay in aerobic shape through quality aerobic cross-training when you can't run. The key would be to make sure that you can get to similar intensities with the alternate activities. You have been able to do that through cycling really well.

The "real results" for me for staying in what you call "top shape" would be race results, though-- not only speed vs. heart rate or speed in zone 1. Partly because race results would depend on anaerobic fitness as well as aerobic fitness.

[runningman]

I don't doubt that you can stay in aerobic shape through quality aerobic cross-training when you can't run. The key would be to make sure that you can get to similar intensities with the alternate activities. You have been able to do that through cycling really well.

The "real results" for me for staying in what you call "top shape" would be race results, though-- not only speed vs. heart rate or speed in zone 1. Partly because race results would depend on anaerobic fitness as well as aerobic fitness.

Guaranteed my anaerobic fitness is better. For some reason I am able to really push harder and take more pain when I am cycling. It will be very interesting to see when I go get tested again. Maybe that will be my next "experiment:.
The thing is, my bike zone heart rates are scientifically lower than my running zones, but I am able to keep the bike at mid 180s for longer.
As you say it all depends on what we define as "top shape". My body feels WAY better.
As far as race results, thats another animal. Is a person in better shape if he or she can run a faster 10k or if he or she can run a faster marathon? Is someone in better shape who runs a marathon 10 minutes faster but has aching knees, hips and feet from doing so much running? Maybe, maybe not!

[Pat Menzies]

Claims that cross-training seems to work as well or better than purely running is largely because it is approached more aggressively than running.
There is also the fact that new exercises are inefficient and more demanding on the body than something that has been done until the body no longer responds to a significant degree.
If you find that cross training gives better results look closely at what you are doing. If there is higher intensity and increased frequency, that is the answer before stating that just doing different activities give the same results.

[runningman]

Claims that cross-training seems to work as well or better than purely running is largely because it is approached more aggressively than running.
There is also the fact that new exercises are inefficient and more demanding on the body than something that has been done until the body no longer responds to a significant degree.
If you find that cross training gives better results look closely at what you are doing. If there is higher intensity and increased frequency, that is the answer before stating that just doing different activities give the same results.

Pat, thats a really interesting point and brings up a good question. I really feel that I get more out of my threshold workouts on the bike than I do when I am running. Should I be doing that instead maybe every second week once I starting run training again? I'd obviously still have to do fast runs as well because it is different.
I wouldn't say the frequency is any more than when I was running.
The perceived effort is the same when I am biking as running(maybe just a bit harder), but the HR is higher by 4 or 5 points.

[Ed Fizz]

Good job Mike! Now get in the pool already!

Mike buddy, don't you be going tri on me!

[runningman]

Good job Mike! Now get in the pool already!

Mike buddy, don't you be going tri on me!

Nope. Maybe du, likely du, but not tri....for now.

[Pat Menzies]

It sounds like your frequency of hard bike workouts is higher. Did you regularly hammer runs and do long intervals in nearly every run? Probably not.
Maybe you should switch to biking. Some people are just better suited to it.
Oddly, "anaerobic transference" doesn't seem to carry over from biking to running.
You can take a gold medal winning cyclist and have him run a 1000 meter race and he will be humiliated.
It happened to Chris Boardman.
In any case anaerobic fitness plays almost no role in longer races at a non-elite level.

[fe.RMT]

This is the second time I did it with virtually identical results. I did not want to post anything after doing it just once.
I am not sure of your point of running more frequently or repeatability. I'm on the bike every day and do core work ever second day, if thats what you mean by repeatability. But I'm not sure what you mean.

No, by repeatability I mean that at one time that workout was ONE of many in a marathon training schedule. You completed that workout now in the absence of the marathon training schedule. Do you think you would have had the same result if that workout at this moment in time was bookended by the other workouts that come from marathon training? What about after several weeks of similar training? That workout used to form one component of a full training schedule, not just a one off test. That is what I meant by repeatability, can you complete the test and then continue on with the rest of the workouts.

[Jwolf]

Is a person in better shape if he or she can run a faster 10k or if he or she can run a faster marathon?

Personally that's how I would define "better shape" with respect to running, yes. If better shape doesn't translate to race times, to me it's not really "better shape". The title of your thread-- making the case for cross-training-- would only be proven with race times.

I agree with Pat, though-- maybe you are better suited to cycling. Are you related to Lance? Seriously-- I do know of people that have been able to transfer cycling training to running very well. I can't at my level-- my cycling abilitiy at the high intensity and long distance level is not where it needs to be to get the same training effect. In a past life I used to do a lot more cycling training before I realized that I was not effectively using my training time.

In any case anaerobic fitness plays almost no role in longer races at a non-elite level.

I was thinking more about 5K and 10K races where it definitely plays a role at Mike's level. Not as much at the half-marathon and marahton, though, no.

[Pat Menzies]

I wouldn't even say it plays a part unless you are at the point where you are at a high level and actually finish a 5 or 10k race at least the same "way" as an elite if not the same pace.
A 5 or 10k is at your highest aerobic speed possible. Whatever little anaerobic pick-up we can muster at the end plays little part in the overall average speed or effort.
The anaerobic component is miniscule and very few people can develop it to a degree that they can operate anaerobically at a higher level for an extended period of time.

[runningman]

It sounds like your frequency of hard bike workouts is higher. Did you regularly hammer runs and do long intervals in nearly every run? Probably not.
Maybe you should switch to biking. Some people are just better suited to it.
Oddly, "anaerobic transference" doesn't seem to carry over from biking to running.
You can take a gold medal winning cyclist and have him run a 1000 meter race and he will be humiliated.
It happened to Chris Boardman.
In any case anaerobic fitness plays almost no role in longer races at a non-elite level.

This has been good learning for me.

One difference is that during my marathon training I would not have done as much total cardio as I am doing now on the bike. Maybe I go run the First Half and see what happens.... Hopefully I'm not cross eyed at 10k!

[runningman]

This is the second time I did it with virtually identical results. I did not want to post anything after doing it just once.
I am not sure of your point of running more frequently or repeatability. I'm on the bike every day and do core work ever second day, if thats what you mean by repeatability. But I'm not sure what you mean.

No, by repeatability I mean that at one time that workout was ONE of many in a marathon training schedule. You completed that workout now in the absence of the marathon training schedule. Do you think you would have had the same result if that workout at this moment in time was bookended by the other workouts that come from marathon training? What about after several weeks of similar training? That workout used to form one component of a full training schedule, not just a one off test. That is what I meant by repeatability, can you complete the test and then continue on with the rest of the workouts.

That is a good point as well. Perhaps(with nothing to base this on) because my specific running muscles were not taxed as much as during the marathon training, it made the effort easier when I ran.

[Tri_K]

This is actually my experiment. I'm looking at running a few races this year that I have done for the past couple of years, when I was tri training 6-7 days a week, to see if I can improve my times. The experiment is that I've been doing almost no running. I've been doing cross fit twice a week and one other workout - usually a 5km run. It may or may not work; I was just curious to find out if I could become a faster runner without doing a bunch of running.

[CinC]

This is actually my experiment. I'm looking at running a few races this year that I have done for the past couple of years, when I was tri training 6-7 days a week, to see if I can improve my times. The experiment is that I've been doing almost no running. I've been doing cross fit twice a week and one other workout - usually a 5km run. It may or may not work; I was just curious to find out if I could become a faster runner without doing a bunch of running.

is that how you're going to go in for GWN? cross fit twice a week and one run? brave....

[Dstew]

As far as race results, thats another animal. Is a person in better shape if he or she can run a faster 10k or if he or she can run a faster marathon? Is someone in better shape who runs a marathon 10 minutes faster but has aching knees, hips and feet from doing so much running? Maybe, maybe not!

Someone who is "fit" can actually be "unhealthy" and so the question to be answered is how much is 10 minutes worth?

Moderate running is a good thing, over doing it for your body for an extended period of time has to have some consequence down the road. Aching knees, hips and feet are not a natural occurence and so is your body's way of saying, unless that 10 minutes is really worth it, do not do it.


And one other thing to consider is that what few studies there are involving non-elite runners would seem to suggest there is a fairly rapid diminished rate of return for running. The Northern Iowa marathon study:

Frequency
Volume: weekly mileage progression
Specificity: long run progression
Training Intensity
Performance: Marathon Finishing Time

4 days per week
18 – 39 mpw
55 min. – 150 min.
60% – 75% HRR
4:18:42 males

4:50:54 females

6 days per week
23 – 48 mpw
55 min. – 150 min.
60% – 75% HRR
4:16:48 males

4:51:18 females

Here is a summary of an article to peak your interest:

Summary

The argument is frequently advanced that increasing weekly mileage improves performance and that high weekly mileage is necessary for optimal performance. The speed and training habits of elite runners are frequently used as evidence supporting these beliefs. In contrast to these beliefs, research shows a modest correlation between weekly mileage and race performance. The research reviewed here leads us to the conclusion that different athletes respond differently to increases in weekly mileage. The data suggests that the performance of faster athletes improves with each increase in weekly mileage, up to some high level. Performance for runners with average genetic talents levels off at a much lower weekly mileage with no additional improvements despite additional increases in weekly mileage. Finally performance peaks at relatively low weekly mileages for those athletes with seemingly low genetic talents and then declines as weekly mileage continues to increase. I suggest that the genetic factors that greatly influence an athlete's natural, inborn speed also determine that athlete's response to increasing weekly mileages.
And a link to the entire article:

http://www.powerrunning.com/Training/Do ... ileage.htm


I can tell you in my own case that "Cross training" (as much as I loath that term now) actually benefits me. I have found that I have no injuries or the aches you spoke of and my "performance" running is virtually the same, or close enough not to justify the increased risk of injury and pain from the extra running. What it probably says about me is self evident - I am not an elite and so the extra mileage that would benefit an elite runner does nothing for me aside from increasing my pain and risk of injury.

[bnn]

This is actually my experiment. I'm looking at running a few races this year that I have done for the past couple of years, when I was tri training 6-7 days a week, to see if I can improve my times. The experiment is that I've been doing almost no running. I've been doing cross fit twice a week and one other workout - usually a 5km run. It may or may not work; I was just curious to find out if I could become a faster runner without doing a bunch of running.

is that how you're going to go in for GWN? cross fit twice a week and one run? brave....

I think she was referring to her running