On the topic of Selling/Buying Race Bibs ...

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On the topic of Selling/Buying Race Bibs ...

Postby HCcD » Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:12 pm

Interesting article on the topic of buying / selling race bibs, unauthorized, of course ...


Bib Violations and Big City Marathons
The ethics of using someone else's race number in sold-out races

http://www.runnersworld.com/rt-columns/bib-violations-and-big-city-marathons
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Re: On the topic of Selling/Buying Race Bibs ...

Postby Spirit Unleashed » Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:12 pm

I think that for some races, buying a bib is perfectly fine. For other races, no I don't. Maybe qualifying speeds have something to do with my differentiation.
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Re: On the topic of Selling/Buying Race Bibs ...

Postby Jwolf » Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:18 pm

Spirit wrote:I think that for some races, buying a bib is perfectly fine. For other races, no I don't. Maybe qualifying speeds have something to do with my differentiation.

Isn't it really whether the race rules allow it?
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Re: On the topic of Selling/Buying Race Bibs ...

Postby Spirit Unleashed » Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:23 pm

Jwolf wrote:
Spirit wrote:I think that for some races, buying a bib is perfectly fine. For other races, no I don't. Maybe qualifying speeds have something to do with my differentiation.

Isn't it really whether the race rules allow it?

depends on if you plan to follow the rules or not. But at times, even if against the rules, I'd buy a bib. At other times, I wouldn't.
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Re: On the topic of Selling/Buying Race Bibs ...

Postby Robinandamelia » Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:26 pm

I think for races that there are no qualifying times/lotteries, they should allow the transferring of bibs (even if its for a fee). People are going to do it, so why not regulate it. I like the fact that ATB allows it. I think when they don't, it's just going to happen anyway. I personally wouldn't want to run under someone else's name.

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Re: On the topic of Selling/Buying Race Bibs ...

Postby purdy65 » Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:27 pm

Regardless of the rules - running under someone else's bib just PERSONALLY doesn't feel right. Plus - I like to have an official record of each race I have a medal and t-shirt for. That's just me - YMMV. I try not to judge people who do this, but that mostly involves keeping my mouth shut when I know it's going on.

Only exception I had was when I heard one of my clinic members planning to run Scotia under someone else's name. It mystified me since scotia allows bib transfers (I did so myself!). I asked them to please spend the 10 bucks and transfer legitimately - it was so easy to do!
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Re: On the topic of Selling/Buying Race Bibs ...

Postby La » Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:43 pm

As we can see with Ottawa Race Weekend, Melissa's Road Race, and ATB, allowing people to transfer bibs just means that the races sell out much more quickly, because people don't worry about registering so far in advance as they know they can transfer.

But in races like Boston, NYC, Chicago, etc., those races sell out anyway, that they don't need to offer bib transfer as a way of ensuring a sell out. If they were to offer bib transfers (and charge a fee for doing it), they could potentially add another revenue stream. Of course, that would also open up the doors to "black/grey market" sales of race bibs at a premium (essentially, scalpers of race bibs).

If people run illegally under someone else's bib it's essentially the same as someone cutting in line at the movies, grocery store, or post office. It doesn't really "harm" anyone, but it's just rude and inconsiderate, and has a sense of entitlement to it that they are above the rules that everyone else agrees to play by.

In the case of races with start corrals based on expected time, if that person cuts in line (by racing under someone else's bib), they could very well end up in the wrong corral for their ability (too fast or too slow), which essentially is a PITA for the other racers, as well as themelves.

Do I think that racing with someone else's bib is akin to drinking and driving (the way some of the commenters in the story have suggested)? Of course not. But I'm generally a rule follower, so I'll just wait and get my bib in a legitimate way. Will I judge you for it if you do? Yes, I will. ;) But I won't call you out and make a public mockery of you. :lol:
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Re: On the topic of Selling/Buying Race Bibs ...

Postby turd ferguson » Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:55 pm

First of all, that article was an assault on the English language and should be taken out back and either shot or edited.

La wrote:If people run illegally under someone else's bib ..


I don't mean to pick on you La but calling running on someone else's bib "illegal" is race director doubletalk to make you feel bad about it. There's nothing illegal about it.

IMO - its all a scam to make money of people who register and don't run, by controlling or outlawing the "secondary market" in race entries. There's nothing special about a race entry, just like there's nothing special about a ticket to a sold out movie or concert.

Yes, there are lots of events that try to control their own secondary markets, but that doesn't make it right.

Who would be harmed by making race entries fully transferrable? Who is harmed if I run on someone else's bib?
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Re: On the topic of Selling/Buying Race Bibs ...

Postby La » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:01 pm

turd ferguson wrote:IMO - its all a scam to make money of people who register and don't run, by controlling or outlawing the "secondary market" in race entries. There's nothing special about a race entry, just like there's nothing special about a ticket to a sold out movie or concert.

Yes, there are lots of events that try to control their own secondary markets, but that doesn't make it right.

Who would be harmed by making race entries fully transferrable? Who is harmed if I run on someone else's bib?

I don't know that I'd call it a "scam" by race directors, but it definitely is part of their business model and factored into their P&L for the event. If they didn't get X% of no-shows, then the cost per entry might have to go up, though they could off-set that by charging a transfer fee.

With regards to the secondary market (for tickets to anything), the only one harmed due to re-selling is the original seller of the "ticket" since they aren't benefiting in any way from the secondary sale at an inflated price. Which of course leads us to the answer to the question of why they don't allow bib transfers...
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Re: On the topic of Selling/Buying Race Bibs ...

Postby La » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:04 pm

turd ferguson wrote:
La wrote:If people run illegally under someone else's bib ..


I don't mean to pick on you La but calling running on someone else's bib "illegal" is race director doubletalk to make you feel bad about it. There's nothing illegal about it.

Fine. Pick on me. :roll:

It's against the rules set out by the race organizer for people to run a race with someone else's bib.
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Re: On the topic of Selling/Buying Race Bibs ...

Postby ian » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:10 pm

turd ferguson wrote:I don't mean to pick on you La but calling running on someone else's bib "illegal" is race director doubletalk to make you feel bad about it. There's nothing illegal about it.

Sure it is. If you click a box when registering that states that there are to be no refunds or transfers, you can't turn around and say that the rule doesn't apply to you because it's silly. The main difference between this and, say, reselling an airline ticket, is the level of enforcement and punishment.

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Re: On the topic of Selling/Buying Race Bibs ...

Postby turd ferguson » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:16 pm

La wrote:
turd ferguson wrote:
La wrote:If people run illegally under someone else's bib ..


I don't mean to pick on you La but calling running on someone else's bib "illegal" is race director doubletalk to make you feel bad about it. There's nothing illegal about it.

Fine. Pick on me. :roll:

It's against the rules set out by the race organizer for people to run a race with someone else's bib.


But that's a big difference. "against the rules" ≠ illegal. Breaking the rules of a contest is not the same thing as breaking the law and I despise it when private organizations call breaking rules "illegal" to give their rules the illusion of law. And you see people buying into it when they compare running on a borrowed bib to drunk driving. Get a grip, people.
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Re: On the topic of Selling/Buying Race Bibs ...

Postby La » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:26 pm

turd ferguson wrote:
La wrote:
turd ferguson wrote:
La wrote:If people run illegally under someone else's bib ..


I don't mean to pick on you La but calling running on someone else's bib "illegal" is race director doubletalk to make you feel bad about it. There's nothing illegal about it.

Fine. Pick on me. :roll:

It's against the rules set out by the race organizer for people to run a race with someone else's bib.


But that's a big difference. "against the rules" ≠ illegal. Breaking the rules of a contest is not the same thing as breaking the law and I despise it when private organizations call breaking rules "illegal" to give their rules the illusion of law. And you see people buying into it when they compare running on a borrowed bib to drunk driving. Get a grip, people.

The better analogy is the re-selling of concert tickets or tickets to sporting events. Ottawa Marathon is like re-selling tickets to the sold-out Blue Jays' home opener, whereas a Boston or NYC bib is more like a ticket to the Super Bowl. ;)
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Re: On the topic of Selling/Buying Race Bibs ...

Postby deerdree » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:31 pm

I've never run under someone else's bib (that i can recall) but I've certainly given mine away when I couldn't use them. I never charge for it - to me, that feels weird, even at face value. But if I can't make a race and there's someone else who would like to use it, sure, I'd sooner give the entry away than have it go to waste. I guess it's a sense of entitlement in that I feel like I'm entitled to a spot in the race if I paid for it.

If I can't make it to a concert and I give the ticket to my friend, is that against the rules? I confess, I've never read the fine print there. Is it better for the seat to be empty?

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Re: On the topic of Selling/Buying Race Bibs ...

Postby Spirit Unleashed » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:33 pm

I drive way faster than the speed limit every single effing day.
otoh,
I stop at all red lights while they are still yellow.

And I'm the only one here willing to admit they would buy a bib at times.
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Re: On the topic of Selling/Buying Race Bibs ...

Postby La » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:33 pm

deerdree wrote:If I can't make it to a concert and I give the ticket to my friend, is that against the rules? I confess, I've never read the fine print there. Is it better for the seat to be empty?

You can give it away or sell it at face value (privately). I'm not sure what the rules are on re-selling for a profit. It used to be that scalpers had to stand a certain distance away from the venue, but I don't know if any of those rules are enforced anymore.
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Re: On the topic of Selling/Buying Race Bibs ...

Postby La » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:38 pm

The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that race bibs are really no different than other types of tickets to sporting events. The only difference is that you are paying to compete, and not just to watch. But RDs have set things up in such a way to make us think that there's something different about the event they're running that would make transferrable entries a "problem."
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Re: On the topic of Selling/Buying Race Bibs ...

Postby Joe Dwarf » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:42 pm

Scalping is enabled by a website run by Ticketmaster (and many suspect they scalp themselves) so I don't think illegal.

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Re: On the topic of Selling/Buying Race Bibs ...

Postby Jwolf » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:47 pm

turd ferguson wrote:
La wrote:
turd ferguson wrote:
La wrote:If people run illegally under someone else's bib ..


I don't mean to pick on you La but calling running on someone else's bib "illegal" is race director doubletalk to make you feel bad about it. There's nothing illegal about it.

Fine. Pick on me. :roll:

It's against the rules set out by the race organizer for people to run a race with someone else's bib.


But that's a big difference. "against the rules" ≠ illegal. Breaking the rules of a contest is not the same thing as breaking the law and I despise it when private organizations call breaking rules "illegal" to give their rules the illusion of law. And you see people buying into it when they compare running on a borrowed bib to drunk driving. Get a grip, people.


It could be considered a form of fraud if you are passing yourself off as someone else.

I suspect this is done more often than we would like for races that require qualification times.
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Re: On the topic of Selling/Buying Race Bibs ...

Postby ngcaper » Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:16 pm

Spirit wrote:I drive way faster than the speed limit every single effing day.
otoh,
I stop at all red lights while they are still yellow.

And I'm the only one here willing to admit they would buy a bib at times.


You're not the only one...I've sold and bought bibs, and see nothing wrong with it and will continue to do so if I please. As Turd said it's not illegal, and if an RD or anyone else doesn't like it tough pooh pooh.

I don't agree with buying my way into an event I'd need to qualify for,...but everything else why not. Sometimes it's about the experience and having fun in a race, not about tracking my times, seeing my name on a webpage blah blah blah.
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Re: On the topic of Selling/Buying Race Bibs ...

Postby Dr. S » Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:27 pm

I think more races should allow bib transfers to avoid having people race in other's bib. Races sell so quickly now, you register for a marathon 10 months before, get injured and lose your money. It sucks. And the race makes more money allowing transfers at 15$/each. I see everyone's a winner that way.

I've never bought anyone's bib and race as someone else but I see no issues selling my bibs for an oversold event that doesn't need qualifying times, having said that it has only happened once:

La wrote:Do I think that racing with someone else's bib is akin to drinking and driving (the way some of the commenters in the story have suggested)? Of course not. But I'm generally a rule follower, so I'll just wait and get my bib in a legitimate way. Will I judge you for it if you do? Yes, I will. ;) But I won't call you out and make a public mockery of you. :lol:


I was surprised you wrote this since you bought my Chilly half bib in 2008.... and raced a 1:59 half in my name!
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Re: On the topic of Selling/Buying Race Bibs ...

Postby La » Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:35 pm

Dr. S wrote: I think more races should allow bib transfers to avoid having people race in other's bib. Races sell so quickly now, you register for a marathon 10 months before, get injured and lose your money. It sucks. And the race makes more money allowing transfers at 15$/each. I see everyone's a winner that way.

I've never bought anyone's bib and race as someone else but I see no issues selling my bibs for an oversold event that doesn't need qualifying times, having said that it has only happened once:

La wrote:Do I think that racing with someone else's bib is akin to drinking and driving (the way some of the commenters in the story have suggested)? Of course not. But I'm generally a rule follower, so I'll just wait and get my bib in a legitimate way. Will I judge you for it if you do? Yes, I will. ;) But I won't call you out and make a public mockery of you. :lol:


I was surprised you wrote this since you bought my Chilly half bib in 2008.... and raced a 1:59 half in my name!

I did, and I'll never have that result (a huge PB at the time) showing in my name, so I'll never do it again!

I'm less tolerant about people who use devious methods to run under other people's bibs, such as friends running a marathon under another friend's name to get him/her a BQ result (and I do know someone who's done that).
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Re: On the topic of Selling/Buying Race Bibs ...

Postby Spirit Unleashed » Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:43 pm

The issue of qualifying is different to me. I wouldn't have someone else run a bq for me so I could go to Boston.
If there is a transfer procedure, I'd use it.
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Re: On the topic of Selling/Buying Race Bibs ...

Postby Jwolf » Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:53 pm

La wrote:
Dr. S wrote: I think more races should allow bib transfers to avoid having people race in other's bib. Races sell so quickly now, you register for a marathon 10 months before, get injured and lose your money. It sucks. And the race makes more money allowing transfers at 15$/each. I see everyone's a winner that way.

I've never bought anyone's bib and race as someone else but I see no issues selling my bibs for an oversold event that doesn't need qualifying times, having said that it has only happened once:

La wrote:Do I think that racing with someone else's bib is akin to drinking and driving (the way some of the commenters in the story have suggested)? Of course not. But I'm generally a rule follower, so I'll just wait and get my bib in a legitimate way. Will I judge you for it if you do? Yes, I will. ;) But I won't call you out and make a public mockery of you. :lol:


I was surprised you wrote this since you bought my Chilly half bib in 2008.... and raced a 1:59 half in my name!

I did, and I'll never have that result (a huge PB at the time) showing in my name, so I'll never do it again!

I'm less tolerant about people who use devious methods to run under other people's bibs, such as friends running a marathon under another friend's name to get him/her a BQ result (and I do know someone who's done that).


This to me is pure evil. I realize we are not talking about life/death situations or actual harm, but the rules are there for a reason- and that person is taking away a spot from someone who would have otherwise earned it.

That's why I have a zero-tolerance approach- I can always justify that I am not hurting anyone by doing it, but I actually might be and not realize it. The rules are there for a reason.
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Re: On the topic of Selling/Buying Race Bibs ...

Postby Joe Dwarf » Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:57 pm

Jwolf wrote:This to me is pure evil. I realize we are not talking about life/death situations or actual harm
So, you know, not pure evil. I think this stuff is covered by Phil, prince of insufficient light.


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