Sports Drinks - useless or worse? (TV alert: Marketplace)

[Mark.AU]

I once did an experiment; I rode my bike hard, on a hot day, with my only intake being water, to see what a bonk felt like. It took 4h20 and ~140km to bonk and it was spectacular. I learned two things that day; what it feels like to bonk and I can go a long way/time without needing sugar.

I've done that experiment inadvertently as well. Time was similar, terrain was tougher, mileage was shorter.

But at the end of the day - does it matter? My car gets 800 km to a tank but that's irrelevant to my ability to drive from Vancouver to Winnipeg.

No, it doesn't matter of course; your example is spot on. I did it specifically to confirm whether or not what I had felt in a race a few weeks previously was a bonk.

My point being that I don't need these energy drinks at all for shorter efforts, and the further implication is I don't need them for longer efforts either, I just need something.

[Sandra]

The sports bars have never made any sense to me, why not just have a Sweet Marie ?

I loved the way they broke down how much sugar/fat was in those "protein" bars, and contrasted it with the chicken breast. Excellent.

jono

Finally had a chance to watch this. It amazed me how most people have no clue what is in a "protein" bar. The show was pretty much on par on what "I" thought anyway.

[MichaelMc]

Your experiments maybe a good example of what happens in a long training session, but a poor experiment.

What is a "bonk"? Is is running low on glycogen, getting tired, getting dehydrated, getting hot, upsetting your electrolyte balance or some blend? You are naming it and "testing" it without defining it. What caused the failure in the end? What should you do to avoid this in the future?

Overheating, fatigue, dehydration, depletion of energy stores and (sometimes) a change in electrolyte level happen to some degree in races. People confuse them as a result, hence the combination of exotic "miracle cures". People cramp and claim it is electrolytes, overheat and figure it is "the wall" or dehydration... this makes prevention harder to figure out.

A good experiment would isolate the factors and hopefully allow you to figure out which were and were not significant and in what circumstances!

[eme]

Your experiments maybe a good example of what happens in a long training session, but a poor experiment.

What is a "bonk"? Is is running low on glycogen, getting tired, getting dehydrated, getting hot, upsetting your electrolyte balance or some blend? You are naming it and "testing" it without defining it. What caused the failure in the end? What should you do to avoid this in the future?

Overheating, fatigue, dehydration, depletion of energy stores and (sometimes) a change in electrolyte level happen to some degree in races. People confuse them as a result, hence the combination of exotic "miracle cures". People cramp and claim it is electrolytes, overheat and figure it is "the wall" or dehydration... this makes prevention harder to figure out.

A good experiment would isolate the factors and hopefully allow you to figure out which were and were not significant and in what circumstances!

Very good point. I think that I might do a bit more experimenting in the pool. I know already that with water only, I cramp. I will have to try an electrolyte only (without sugar) to see if that works, or if it is the sugar that I need.

[jonovision_man]

The sports bars have never made any sense to me, why not just have a Sweet Marie ?

I loved the way they broke down how much sugar/fat was in those "protein" bars, and contrasted it with the chicken breast. Excellent.

jono

If you're eating a protein bar for a meal, good comparison. But in the pocket of my bike jersey, not as useful.

True! .

Actually the more I think about the show, the more it seems to confirm sports drinks rather than deny them. The triathlete going "hard" showed "significant" blood glucose drop after just 45 mins. Sure, she didn't need the electrolytes until 2 hours, but she did need sugar. Sports drinks are pretty convenient way to get a sugar pop.

jono

[Jwolf]

Your experiments maybe a good example of what happens in a long training session, but a poor experiment.

What is a "bonk"? Is is running low on glycogen, getting tired, getting dehydrated, getting hot, upsetting your electrolyte balance or some blend? You are naming it and "testing" it without defining it. What caused the failure in the end? What should you do to avoid this in the future?

Overheating, fatigue, dehydration, depletion of energy stores and (sometimes) a change in electrolyte level happen to some degree in races. People confuse them as a result, hence the combination of exotic "miracle cures". People cramp and claim it is electrolytes, overheat and figure it is "the wall" or dehydration... this makes prevention harder to figure out.

A good experiment would isolate the factors and hopefully allow you to figure out which were and were not significant and in what circumstances!

Well said!

The only data I know about myself for sure is that I feel much more tired the NEXT day if I don't start to refuel early on a semi-long or long run. I know I don't need the fuel to finish a 75-90 minute workout, but that's not why I take it.

As for races- I've always had trouble in marathons and slowed after 3 hours, but I always assumes it was related to my pacing and fitness and not my fueling or hydration or electrolytes. I've also had cramping in some half-marathons and also assumed it was over-exertion- many people quickly blame "electrolytes" but I don't think so.

[Mark.AU]

Your experiments maybe a good example of what happens in a long training session, but a poor experiment.

What is a "bonk"? Is is running low on glycogen, getting tired, getting dehydrated, getting hot, upsetting your electrolyte balance or some blend? You are naming it and "testing" it without defining it. What caused the failure in the end? What should you do to avoid this in the future?

Overheating, fatigue, dehydration, depletion of energy stores and (sometimes) a change in electrolyte level happen to some degree in races. People confuse them as a result, hence the combination of exotic "miracle cures". People cramp and claim it is electrolytes, overheat and figure it is "the wall" or dehydration... this makes prevention harder to figure out.

A good experiment would isolate the factors and hopefully allow you to figure out which were and were not significant and in what circumstances!

Yawn.

[La]

I just finished watching the show. I knew two of the runners being tested on the track (Mel and Duff), which is also the track I did my 3-hour run at last month. It honestly didn't surprise me that after doing a 45-min run that they didn't need any sugar or electrolyte replacement. I wouldn't have expected that it would.

If I'm planning for a 90-min run, I'll often take one gel (100 calories) with water at the half-way point, but never for anything shorter than that. I wish they'd talked about post-workout fueling and the impact on recovery, but I understand that their target audience wasn't the 2% of people who need to know about that stuff.

I was surprised, though, that the triathlete doing the bike workout didn't have any reduction in electrolytes. They didn't specify, but it didn't appear that she was drinking water during the workout, either. If that's the case, then that makes sense because she wasn't replacing lost sweat with water. If she'd been drinking water, wouldn't she have seen a lowering of the concentration of electrolytes in her blood?

I actually laughed out loud during the discussion with the researcher at Harvard who referred to cushioning running shoes as "foot coffins." Reminds me of that "What Barefoot Runners Say" video.

In the scenes of the kids drinking Gatorade after their hockey games, some of them were actually drinking G2, which doesn't have any sugar in it (sucralose, maybe?). I was disappointed (but not surprised) that the parents didn't seem to care that their kids were drinking all that sugar, even though they didn't need it.

[jonovision_man]

In the scenes of the kids drinking Gatorade after their hockey games, some of them were actually drinking G2, which doesn't have any sugar in it (sucralose, maybe?). I was disappointed (but not surprised) that the parents didn't seem to care that their kids were drinking all that sugar, even though they didn't need it.

G2 has sugar, sucralose (the least bad artificial sweetener) salt, and a touch of potassium.

It was their attempt to sell electrolytes to people watching calories who probably get enough salt already.

jono

[kab]

Interesting discussion. One added benefit of Gatorade is that your fluid bottle takes a little longer to freeze in the winter.

[Spirit Unleashed]

It is frequently the same researcher at Harvard the proclaims the evils of shoes.

[MrBond]

Interesting discussion. One added benefit of Gatorade is that your fluid bottle takes a little longer to freeze in the winter.

True dat !

[trixiee]

I was thinking that the need for electrolyte replacement, and absorption of sugar and electrolytes is individualized. For example, in my biking group, we have a gal who can go ~ 100 K without anything other than water, and on the other hand, we have a man in the same group, who needs to eat/drink every half an hour, or he bonks. Both are riding about the same speed, and she is likely doing more pulling than he does. Is this a measure of fitness, or something else? Can we train our bodies to go long distances without refueling? Does metabolism play a part?

[Mark.AU]

I was thinking that the need for electrolyte replacement, and absorption of sugar and electrolytes is individualized. For example, in my biking group, we have a gal who can go ~ 100 K without anything other than water, and on the other hand, we have a man in the same group, who needs to eat/drink every half an hour, or he bonks. Both are riding about the same speed, and she is likely doing more pulling than he does. Is this a measure of fitness, or something else? Can we train our bodies to go long distances without refueling? Does metabolism play a part?

They need to do a double-blind fully controlled experiment to find out, of course. We can't go on anecdote or personal experience here, it's too important.

Seriously, I think it is personal and very much controlled by individual perception as much as any physiological elements. Real experts, and self-proclaimed experts alike need to understand that what a person perceives as their needs is far more important for performance than what they say. For the most part we're talking about weekend warriors and nutrition that ain't killing anyone, not Olympic athletes for whom every opportunity for an edge - however minute it may be - is important.

[Jwolf]

I was thinking that the need for electrolyte replacement, and absorption of sugar and electrolytes is individualized. For example, in my biking group, we have a gal who can go ~ 100 K without anything other than water, and on the other hand, we have a man in the same group, who needs to eat/drink every half an hour, or he bonks. Both are riding about the same speed, and she is likely doing more pulling than he does. Is this a measure of fitness, or something else? Can we train our bodies to go long distances without refueling? Does metabolism play a part?

Definitely an individual thing and related to fitness (for example, some people need more sugar if they aren't as efficient at metabolizing fat while exercising, people with more body fat sweat more and need more hydration, etc).

[MichaelMc]

They need to do a double-blind fully controlled experiment to find out, of course. We can't go on anecdote or personal experience here, it's too important.

Seriously, I think it is personal and very much controlled by individual perception as much as any physiological elements. Real experts, and self-proclaimed experts alike need to understand that what a person perceives as their needs is far more important for performance than what they say. For the most part we're talking about weekend warriors and nutrition that ain't killing anyone, not Olympic athletes for whom every opportunity for an edge - however minute it may be - is important.

The facts don't matter, anecdotes do: got it!

Everybody should buy into every snake oil because the placebo effect is the important thing, not actual results. I'm thinking the "Marketplace" people need to read the memo, but I suppose that would put them out of a job.

[MrBond]

The facts don't matter, anecdotes do: got it!

Everybody should buy into every snake oil because the placebo effect is the important thing, not actual results. I'm thinking the "Marketplace" people need to read the memo, but I suppose that would put them out of a job.

The Marketplace people have 22 and a half minutes to present their case - hardly 'in-depth', and their job is to provide thought provoking entertainment.
If you need the sugar jolt to get you through, then I say go for it. If you choose to adopt a diet and lifestyle like Clara Hughes', even better.
I think they did a fair, if light duty, examination of the way things are - heck they got all of us crankin' on about it didn't they ?

[Mark.AU]

They need to do a double-blind fully controlled experiment to find out, of course. We can't go on anecdote or personal experience here, it's too important.

Seriously, I think it is personal and very much controlled by individual perception as much as any physiological elements. Real experts, and self-proclaimed experts alike need to understand that what a person perceives as their needs is far more important for performance than what they say. For the most part we're talking about weekend warriors and nutrition that ain't killing anyone, not Olympic athletes for whom every opportunity for an edge - however minute it may be - is important.

The facts don't matter, anecdotes do: got it!

Everybody should buy into every snake oil because the placebo effect is the important thing, not actual results. I'm thinking the "Marketplace" people need to read the memo, but I suppose that would put them out of a job.

Of course, you're right Michael, I don't know what I was thinking.

[DonnaRigs]

I really don't use a lot of sports drinks when I am running/cycling, although if it's a really hot day, I'll bring one bottle with Ultima in it. Generally I have low/normal blood pressure and am prone to migraines. I know sometimes a gatorade can help with the pain/dehydration that comes with a migraine - same with a well-timed Coke (I know, it's poison, but migraines suck so much).

I really only worry about Ultima/G2 if it's extremely hot out.

[Jogger Barbie]

The only sports drink I use is dilute E-Load, and that's usually for training runs that I know will be 2+ hours. Sometimes I just have the drink, and sometimes I'll take a GU chomp or two along the way. It really depends on how I'm feeling that day and what I think my notoriously touchy digestion will accept. Like others have said, for marathons (or extra long training runs where I'm trying to practice marathon fuelling), I'll start taking in GU chomps every 10 or 12 km,and I'll drink a little more. It's great in the summer when I can carry my E-Load but also get water at fountains, because in a race I like to have water as well.

Experiment of one, and all that...

[Darth Tater]

[erinmcd]

I can't believe we're almost 4 pages into a discussion on sports drinks and Brawndo hasn't been referenced yet.

[jonovision_man]

They need to do a double-blind fully controlled experiment to find out, of course. We can't go on anecdote or personal experience here, it's too important.

Seriously, I think it is personal and very much controlled by individual perception as much as any physiological elements. Real experts, and self-proclaimed experts alike need to understand that what a person perceives as their needs is far more important for performance than what they say. For the most part we're talking about weekend warriors and nutrition that ain't killing anyone, not Olympic athletes for whom every opportunity for an edge - however minute it may be - is important.

The facts don't matter, anecdotes do: got it!

Everybody should buy into every snake oil because the placebo effect is the important thing, not actual results. I'm thinking the "Marketplace" people need to read the memo, but I suppose that would put them out of a job.

+1.

Marketplace isn't a show about how to best train for a marathon, it's a show about holding businesses to account for the claims they are making. The show did it's job - it showed that sports drink advertising overstates the benefits and tries to sell the drinks to people who don't really need them.

Sure, it's not "killing anyone" (ignoring obesity related illnesses) but neither are the "detox diets" they exposed a few weeks ago, or the over-packaging of products, or insurance policies that don't cover people, etc. The mandate of the show is consumer awareness, and given this thread has gone on for several pages of posts, I'd say they did their job.

jono

[La]

Marketplace isn't a show about how to best train for a marathon, it's a show about holding businesses to account for the claims they are making. The show did it's job - it showed that sports drink advertising overstates the benefits and tries to sell the drinks to people who don't really need them.

True. It also proves to marketing & advertising companies that the millions of $$ their clients spend promoting their products through ads and celebrity endorsement works, despite the fact that their products don't!

[MrBond]

Another take:

http://www.iloverunningmagazine.com/sto ... emy-water/