Why don't female marathoners go for records like men?

[QuickChick]

There was a new 3000m indoor world record set today by Genzebe Dibaba- 8 minutes, 16 seconds. That's 7 seconds off the old WR- huge! The old WR had stood for 7 years. Good for her!! This got me thinking about the women's marathon record that Paula Radcliffe holds. No one has been even close to it (except her!) and no one seems to be chasing it, yet the men are all chasing their world record. Sure, women don't need to run sub 2:15 to win races, but men usually don't need to run sub 2:04 to win races either (though their fields do tend to be much more competitive and closer to their WR at major races for the win).

Why aren't more women going for the WR? I think it would raise women's distance running up several notches. I'm very happy to see Lanni Marchant and Krista Duchene at least making major gains (FINALLY breaking the women's marathon record) and aggressively going for the A standard for Rio.

Of course this is all pure speculation, but I think it's an interesting discussion.

[ian]

I think Paula's WR is one of the great performances across all sports and all eras. It's going to take a while before one or more runners will be in a position to challenge it, so in the meantime, they're racing to win, especially because that's a more reliable way to make a living in the sport. Now if some billionaire put up, say, $10M for a new WR (or a sub-2 men's marathon), the strategies may change...

[QuickChick]

Aren't there bonuses for WR's at marathons, though? One would think IF (it's a big if) she didn't blow up, if a runner didn't get the WR she would be in strong contention (or miles ahead) for a win anyway.

[ian]

Aren't there bonuses for WR's at marathons, though? One would think IF (it's a big if) she didn't blow up, if a runner didn't get the WR she would be in strong contention (or miles ahead) for a win anyway.

Bonuses, yes, but not big enough to alter the risk-reward calculation for the current crop of top runners. Look at the recent NYC marathon, where the eventual winner came from something like 4 minutes back at halfway, to see why the FFTF (fade from the front) strategy doesn't usually turn out well for these girls.

[QuickChick]

Interesting. Is the FFTF strategy the one Radcliffe used? I can't remember if she was out front the whole time. Definitely risky but it seems men have a more ingrained desire to want to be THE BEST. Here's a link to various world record times/distances. The most recent women's record looks to be from 2009, and many are from the 80's and 90's, whereas the men's are being challenged much more regularly. I guess I just want to see more women going for it, in the marathon and in shorter distances.


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[MichaelMc]

There are some other issues, one being depth. Mens record attempts generally require pacers: runners whose job it is to lead the race at WR pace. This requires runners who are willing and able to run a long distance at WR pace yet aren't competitive enough to be in serious contention for the win (although occasionally they DO win).

It has been decided that women being paced by Men are no longer be WR eligible, so it needs to be a couple of women and there aren't nearly so many women able to do this as there are men. Paula's record is well out there, and the few women with a legitimate possibility of running it don't have anyone to pace them (who isn't competing for the winning money).

There are a remarkable number of men NEARLY fast enough.

[QuickChick]

THAT makes a lot of sense. I remember that rule change. I remember there was a lot of controversy around it, and at the time I thought it was a bad idea. I still think it's a bad idea, and I think you're right- a lot of this stagnation probably comes straight from that.

I can't remember though- did Paula have pacers? There would've been a few men running 2:15 to at least feed off though. And men ARE still allowed pacers in the marathon, correct?

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[La]

I don't know whether Paula had official pacers, but she likely would have been running in a pack of men who effectievly acted as pacers for her, hence why they changed that rule for WR eligibility.

[ian]

I don't know whether Paula had official pacers, but she likely would have been running in a pack of men who effectievly acted as pacers for her, hence why they changed that rule for WR eligibility.

While Paula indeed was running among a handful of men, they were definitely not pacing her in any official or unofficial way: she didn't draft and they were trying to keep up with her even pace rather than the other way around. The rule change makes sense (going forward), but there should be no asterisk alongside Paula's WR.

[La]

I don't know whether Paula had official pacers, but she likely would have been running in a pack of men who effectievly acted as pacers for her, hence why they changed that rule for WR eligibility.

While Paula indeed was running among a handful of men, they were definitely not pacing her in any official or unofficial way: she didn't draft and they were trying to keep up with her even pace rather than the other way around. The rule change makes sense (going forward), but there should be no asterisk alongside Paula's WR.

I agree: I don't think there should be an asterisk, either.

But whether or not they were unofficially pacing her, don't you think she benefited from running along side other runners, rather than being out there all on her own?

[ian]

I agree: I don't think there should be an asterisk, either.

But whether or not they were unofficially pacing her, don't you think she benefited from running along side other runners, rather than being out there all on her own?

No, I don't think it mattered much in this particular case. Paula was running right to the edge of her fitness and the men around her just happened to be a similar speed. If anything, this had the potential of being a distraction if (as likely happened) a couple of guys slowed down or sped up slightly at some point in the race. Without a lot of focus, it would have been very easy for Paula to get drawn towards one of these less optimal paces. Also, at the elite level, aid stations are a nightmare whenever two or more runners are together.

[MichaelMc]

Paula's pacers (two Kenyan men) in London 2003 were officially assigned to her, and one did run the whole way with her (the other dropped out some time after km 32).

On the other side of it she did not sit in their draft during the race, so in some respects she got less aid than most men's marathon record attempts get. The usual drill for the men is a pack draft together behind a group of pacers; the strongest generally hold on past 30k leading the whole time. The racers then choose whether to slow it into a tactical race, speed up and break each other or hold WR pace and see what happens.

Until we get scores of 2:18 women marathoners we probably will not get repeated assaults on Paula's 2:15

[barebuns1]

With the new rule in place. I cannot see Paula's record being broken any time soon. It is a horrible rule. Most of the Mens WR's have had pacers to get them to a certain distance. I don't see the difference.

[ian]

With the new rule in place. I cannot see Paula's record being broken any time soon. It is a horrible rule. Most of the Mens WR's have had pacers to get them to a certain distance. I don't see the difference.

Women's races are still allowed to have women pacing, but as Michael points out, there isn't enough depth currently in the sport to make use of this at the highest levels. From my perspective, having men pace women in races is in some sense equivalent to using a vehicle with a huge plexiglass shield to pace a men's race; the pacer should be an eligible participant. Perhaps a bigger gripe is financial: pacers should be arranged by the organizing committee of the race (so as not to provide preferential treatment to one of the competitors, e.g., smaller marathons where a female contender is paced by her husband) but as of yet there hasn't been enough demand for top women's performances to justify the expense.

[Pat Menzies]

They don't have men pacing women to track records. They shouldn't have them pacing them to road records.

[QuickChick]

Pat and I have had many debates over this, haha... I think as long as the person going for the record (male OR female) isn't drafting off the pacer, it shouldn't matter if they're male or female.

[Jwolf]

Pat and I have had many debates over this, haha... I think as long as the person going for the record (male OR female) isn't drafting off the pacer, it shouldn't matter if they're male or female.

It's not just drafting- the help from effect of drafting is actually less than the actual pacing assistance.

[MichaelMc]

In principle I think it is the right thing to insist the pacer be an entrant and a viable competitor. The alternative is to start having rules and referees like triathlon "no drafting!". Retroactively applying the rule seemed unfair, so I'm glad they changed their decision.

Paula's 2003 world record run is still astonishing; Videos and photographs clearly show wasn't drafting. Erasing such a performance from the record books would be a shame. In this case she'd still hold the World record, but with a much lesser performance.

There are a LOT of Women's records which probably SHOULD be erased from the books as they are clearly the result of doping. Some may not be approachable without drugs.

[dgrant]

More female world record attempts = more uteruses falling out on the road.

No thank you.

[Habs4ever]

More female world record attempts = more uteruses falling out on the road.

No thank you.

[Jo-Jo]

More female world record attempts = more uteruses falling out on the road.

No thank you.

ROFL...thanks for that laugh Dave!

[ian]

On topic: Florence Kiplagat ran 1:05:12 in a half marathon today to take a huge 38 seconds off the previous WR. Strangely, it seems that male pacers are OK for this distance. Nevertheless, that's the kind of fitness that it's going to take to make a run at Paula's time in the future.

[QuickChick]

Wow, good for her. I hope she does make a run for it. That's ridiculously fast!!