Marathon taper

Everything about the training process, including programs, experiences, etc.

IronColl
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Marathon taper

Postby IronColl » Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:33 am

Following the RR marathon training there is the 16km race pace run 8 days before the marathon.

Who has done this and had success with it? Then success at the race (meaning goal time achieved). I understand that all training builds to success, but I am wondering about the impact of this particular run.

I'm torn. Its faster than LSD, but slower and longer than tempo. I dont want to be too tired for the race.

Advice is welcome and appreciated. :)

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Midge
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Postby Midge » Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:39 am

i dont think you need worry to much about being tired, 8 days is enough to recover IMHO..

the cooment i will make from my own experience is that that i have done this twice leading up to marathons and had vastly different experiences both times

first time, i felt great at race pace for 16km and finished full of confidence for my marathon, ended up having a crappy marathon for other reasons


second time, i really struggled doing the 16km had a hard time staying at race pace and felt disillusioned going into the big race, i felt i was not fit enough but i stayed with the plan and surprised myself with a pb

moral of the story - do the run but dont count on the result as being a 100% indicator of marathon performance - stick with your plan
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Postby waynerdog » Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:43 am

That particular run is one of my personal pet peeves (sorry about the alliteration!) about the RR plan. I have never done it, and I'm thankful for that. I honestly don't think it will help one bit that close to race day, but it has huge potential to do harm. The closest I have ever come to doing something equivalent was the Canada Day 14k ( :evil: ) on July 1 followed by the Calgary Marathon on July 8. However, I did not "race" Calgary, so it didn't cause me any problems. I also was able to get Dr. Marcy from RVH to work on me for a few minutes immediately after the Canada Day event, which really helped my recovery.

I just wouldn't do it, but that's me. It may work for some people, but on a risk-reward scale I think it is way too much risk for too little reward.

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Postby scrumhalfgirl » Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:50 am

I recall some discussion about this pre-NCM, and I remember some people saying they often did 3 km warm and cool down and only 10k at race pace.

For what it's worth - before my half, I did 11km at race pace on the Monday, and felt great.
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IronColl
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Postby IronColl » Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:13 pm

waynerdog wrote:I just wouldn't do it, but that's me. It may work for some people, but on a risk-reward scale I think it is way too much risk for too little reward.

That's what I was leaning towards too, but I just wanted to know others opinions and experiences. I am too lazy to search the NCM threads. :)

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Jwolf
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Postby Jwolf » Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:16 pm

scrumhalfgirl wrote:I recall some discussion about this pre-NCM, and I remember some people saying they often did 3 km warm and cool down and only 10k at race pace.


I've heard this variation at some Running Room clinics. Some also do 8x1mile repeats at race pace with one minute rest between (which comes out to about a 13-14K run plus a short warmup for the full distance of 16K). Others still do the full 16K at race pace.

This run is less of a "training" run than a confidence booster (mental training). It's not going to help you hit your race pace from a true physiological training standpoint (your body needs at least two weeks to fully absorb the effect of a training run), but it will help you to know what that pace should feel like. From that perpective I'd say that a shorter run will have just as good of an effect.

Some people I know have said the 16K race pace run "hurt them"; they could do it fine 8 days before but had trouble hitting the pace in the race itself. It might be that they weren't really ready for that race pace from the rest of their training, although some experts agree that a race pace run that close to the marathon shouldn't be that long.

I remember debating whether to do or not do this run before my marathon. I ended up doing the 8x1 mile repeats and it felt fine and gave me some confidence for the race. Then I fell flat during the race itself, mostly because my training wasn't really where it should have been for it (I hadn't done enough tempo runs or race pace running in training). If I do another marathon, I will probably do a few 16K race pace runs during my training but maybe not as close as 8 days before the marathon.
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Postby Jo-Jo » Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:18 pm

IronColl wrote:
waynerdog wrote:I just wouldn't do it, but that's me. It may work for some people, but on a risk-reward scale I think it is way too much risk for too little reward.

That's what I was leaning towards too, but I just wanted to know others opinions and experiences. I am too lazy to search the NCM threads. :)


I looked back on my schedule to see what I was doing 8 days before my race day on October 15th.

Here's my schedule for October 2 - 8th. As you can see...nothing too onerous

Monday: 45 minute aerobic recovery run from Sunday's long ron
Wednesday: 45 minute run with 15 minutes in the middle at marathon goal pace
Friday: 50 Minute Fatlek run
Sunday: 95 minute endurance run in aerobic zone.
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Postby Doonst » Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:52 pm

I did a 16, yes 8 days out. here is my comments from the daily thread:
Just unpacked from 3 days camping at Cape Croker Bruce Penninsula. I had my token crappy taper run on Saturday, 16.6 K at 5:20 pace. Plan was about 5:10 pace, but I was all over the map. Splits from 4:50s to 5:30s, just couldn't ever get in the groove. No energy, no mojo. Oh well, its out of the way.


P.S. I had a great marathon.
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Postby QuickChick » Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:26 pm

I did the 16K at race pace, and I loved it. It was a real confidence booster, as 16K at my race pace felt awesome back in May. If it didn't feel so awesome, though, I can see it working the other way. :? I don't think it did as much for my fitness as it did for my mind, and if you're still going for 4:00 I think it might be good for you to see how you will feel at 16K at that pace.
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Postby IronColl » Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:43 pm

Jennifer, is the minute recovery light jogging, or walking or other.

Hmm, that sounds like a good alternative. All I know is that race pace feels easier now than it did a month ago.

Whatever I decide to do, it will be next Thursday, the same day as my long run, but a couple of days ahead of the RR schedule.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

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Postby Jwolf » Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:52 pm

IronColl wrote:Jennifer, is the minute recovery light jogging, or walking or other.


One minute walking is what I did. I think the Running Room clinic plan was to simulate the walk breaks that they would do in the marathon, so the mile repeats were was actually run at the "run" pace of the 10-and-1's, not average race pace. (I didn't do it with the clinic-- I was on my own for that training.)

I'm not sure if you will do your marathon with walk breaks; either way, a good compromise might be to do a 12-13K run at race pace exactly as you plan to do the marathon. Since you're doing it 10 days before the race, you'll be fine either way.
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Postby IronColl » Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:00 pm

The plan is to walk through the water stations, which are about 2.5 miles apart for the first 10 miles, then about 2 miles for the rest. I have been simulating my training that way. So, doing the 16km broken up that way would be the proper way for me to do the run, if there was sucha thing as "proper".

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Postby FishPants » Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:50 pm

darn, i thought this thread was going to be about shopping. :)

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Albertatraildog
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Postby Albertatraildog » Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:55 pm

The taper is not the time to worry about improving endurance or speed. That should already in the bank. I would recommend cutting back significantly on volume during taper, but maintain some shorter quality sessions to retain fitness. This will get you to the starting line "sharp" and with fresh legs.

My last very long run (50km) will be three weeks before the race. Two weeks out I'll cut that down by half (25km). The week before I cut it in half again (10km), with some quality 5km during the week. Your confidence will come from knowing you are fit, rested, sharp and (hopefully) injury free.:?

I'm not very familiar with the RR training plans, but 16km, run at race-pace, 8 days out from the race seems a little much.


ATD

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Postby dgrant1 » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:20 am

I did a 16k run 7 days before my last Full, that ended up (by accident!) being about 15 sec/km faster than my Full goal pace - and I was fine on race day. The confidence boost was huge, and I think that kind of psychological edge for race day shouldn't be underestimated.
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IronColl
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Postby IronColl » Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:55 am

I found a good 10km route yesterday that would work well for a race pace run. Few lights, and lots of long straightaways. I could easily add on extra distance around my neighbourhood if need be.

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QuickChick
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Postby QuickChick » Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:58 pm

That's a great idea- I don't think the distance matters as much as running at your race pace and guaging how that feels. At the end of 10K (or 16 for that matter) you want to feel really fresh and great, and it will help you a lot for your race. Also you might want to practise your nutrition plan, if it's different from your LSD's. Mine was- I took food every 20 minutes after 8K during the race, whereas I took it every 5K (30 minutes) after 10K in my LSD's. I just found on my other races that I needed more food than I did during LSD's because of the faster pace.
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