Hill training...

[CAW]

How do I determine my pace for hill training?

Do I just run up the 400m hill as hard and fast as I can and then take my time walking back to the base? Or should I find a prescribed pace?

[ultraslacker]

I'm sure you'll get a variety of responses, lol.

When I do hill repeats (which is rare) I aim for a steady, manageable pace. I definitely don't go as hard as I can, until maybe the last repeat. You don't want to kill yourself on it and not be able to finish all the repeats.

eta: I try to do every repeat at the same pace. If you slow down on later repeats, then you did the first ones too fast--just like speedwork! :)

[CAW]

I've put off hills for two weeks now...but seeing as Marathon By The Sea is full of hills (even for the 1/2) I need to train them for strength.

I did CTRR two years ago without hill training and recovery was no worse or better than any other race I've done...but I would like to try to start to incorporate hills into my training.

And the neighbor took the kids to the park for a few hours...so I thought I'd take advantage of it.

[HCcD]

eta: I try to do every repeat at the same pace. If you slow down on later repeats, then you did the first ones too fast--just like speedwork!

what she said ...

I don't really to specific hill training, unless I am with a Clinic, and have no choice ..

Though, I would make sure that my runs, in particular long runs, contain a number of rollers and doozers, if possible ...

[ultraslacker]

Though, I would make sure that my runs, in particular long runs, contain a number of rollers and doozers, if possible ... :wink:

I prefer hilly routes as well, instead of repeats. You get more variety that way and it better replicates what you'll be doing in the race. I'm sure lots of people could point out scientific reasons why repeats are beneficial, but they aren't very much fun...

[rundmc]

I think I do hill repeats at about mile effort, but I've never really thought about it. If you don't know what that feels like, run them slow enough to make sure you can finish the workout. There's really no way to do hill workouts at a particular pace since each hill is different. The pace is not important at all, the effort is.

[CAW]

I think I do hill repeats at about mile effort, but I've never really thought about it. If you don't know what that feels like, run them slow enough to make sure you can finish the workout. There's really no way to do hill workouts at a particular pace since each hill is different. The pace is not important at all, the effort is.

So then should my perceived effort feel about the same as a Tempo run? Ish?

I've never done speed work before either...mostly due to having no access to a track.

I do make sure my long runs are hilly. But that is hard not to do on the east coast. We have hills of varying sizes and lengths all over the place.

[rundmc]

It should be much harder than a tempo run, and I'm sure you'll automatically make it harder. Like I said, it should be the effort you can maintain for just about one mile, or 7-8 minutes.

[ultraslacker]

It should be much harder than a tempo run, and I'm sure you'll automatically make it harder. Like I said, it should be the effort you can maintain for just about one mile, or 7-8 minutes.

I've never seen anyone run hills that hard...

[CAW]

Thanks...I didn't want to get out there and not really push myself...but at the same time I didn't want to get out there and have a coronary either.

Off I go...

ETA: I'll go faster than tempo but not as fast as the "crazy Adeel"

[da]

I run them hard. I also sometimes do a slight variation.

Easy Up, Hard Down, Hard Up, Easy Down rinse and repeat.

In a race the downhills are what hurt more after. So I train the down. It was key for my Boston training.

[pts]

I run my hills at what i call a consistently-hard pace. That is, it is a pace that i think i can finish the # of repeats i am doing without slowing down, but that it is hard enough that by the end of the last hill, i am just about done! I also walk down the hill to start, and then can 'jog' from about 1/2way back down (that allows me to monitor how hard that repeat was).

I think it is all about experimenting. If I am doing 6 hills then the first 2 feel ok, then the next 2 are hard, then the last 2 are really really hard.

I agree that a mile pace may be a bit aggressive

[pts]

It should be much harder than a tempo run, and I'm sure you'll automatically make it harder. Like I said, it should be the effort you can maintain for just about one mile, or 7-8 minutes.

I've never seen anyone run hills that hard...

I think it depends maybe on your intent for the workout??

I do hills for "success", meaning i try to do them so that i feel like I can run a hill and not die. If you are using it as a way to train for speed (like i think Robbie-T does?) then that would be a different workout.

Just my thoughts??

[ultraslacker]

I agree that a mile pace may be a bit aggressive :?

I don't think he means the same pace that you'd run a mile repeat, but the same level of effort. So it'd be a slower pace but feel as tough as mile repeats. I still don't think I'd do hills that hard (but maybe I don't do them hard enough!).

[MichaelMc]

My approach is always "what am I trying to accomplish?". If you are running hills to train for a hilly race, then hitting a steady climbing pace is all you need to do. For this work I just pick a hilly running route since going up and down the same hill is BORING. If you want to build power and improve your running form then you need to power into the hill. Basically they are a "repeat" workout at this point: short intense bursts with complete recovery in between. That works really well, as you can jog back down the hill easily to avoid the pounding that downhill running can cause. Having said that, I echo the others; don't judge by the first repeat, you need to run them at a consistant pace (just consistantly hard ).

Hills generally aren't particularly good as "intervals" (VO2 max training) or "threshold" (lactic acid training) because of their nature. For VO2 max work you want a longer effort but don't want to wait too long between bouts; that takes a long hill that you can get down quickly (or a nicely spaced series of hills). As for "threshold" training, you'd need a very long very steady hill to get a decent workout (or a 'dreadmill').

I don't do hills just to do hills, so I run them HARD (or pick a hilly long run).

[pts]

My approach is always "what am I trying to accomplish?". If you are running hills to train for a hilly race, then hitting a steady climbing pace is all you need to do. For this work I just pick a hilly running route since going up and down the same hill is BORING. If you want to build power and improve your running form then you need to power into the hill. Basically they are a "repeat" workout at this point: short intense bursts with complete recovery in between. That works really well, as you can jog back down the hill easily to avoid the pounding that downhill running can cause. Having said that, I echo the others; don't judge by the first repeat, you need to run them at a consistant pace (just consistantly hard ).

That is a better way to say what i was trying to get at (the whole depends on the point of the hill workout!)

[rundmc]

I don't think he means the same pace that you'd run a mile repeat, but the same level of effort. So it'd be a slower pace but feel as tough as mile repeats. I still don't think I'd do hills that hard (but maybe I don't do them hard enough!).

No, I mean the pace for one mile, all-out. A workout of 8 x 400 on the track, I'd run at mile pace with equal rest, so about 75 seconds with a lot of rest. A set of 8 x 400 uphill is the same workout at the same intensity, but obviously slower (up to 20 seconds slower per 400 if it's a steep hill). You can do it any way you want, of course, but the best gains will come from running hard.

At the same time, for the reasons Michael gave, I don't do hill repeats very often. I usually do a hilly tempo with as many big hills as possible, and I'll do intervals of 3-5 minutes that are similar. Still, if you don't do much speedwork (or any, in the case of the original poster), you'll get faster just from the leg strength you gain from doing the short repeats.

[QuickChick]

I love these ideas, especially Ann's easy-hard combo. Kara, you said before that MBTS isn't an A race for you, right? I don't think you need to worry too much about pace- just get 'er done on your hill workouts. Start out at whatever pace you can manage, then perhaps later on when you're used to doing hills, you can challenge yourself with running a bit harder. In the speed clinic I did awhile ago, one workout the coach had for us was to run hard for 90 seconds up the hill and remember where we got to. Each successive time up the hill, the goal was to get to the same spot in 90 seconds. It was HARD!

[ultraslacker]

I don't think he means the same pace that you'd run a mile repeat, but the same level of effort. So it'd be a slower pace but feel as tough as mile repeats. I still don't think I'd do hills that hard (but maybe I don't do them hard enough!).

No, I mean the pace for one mile, all-out. A workout of 8 x 400 on the track, I'd run at mile pace with equal rest, so about 75 seconds with a lot of rest. A set of 8 x 400 uphill is the same workout at the same intensity, but obviously slower (up to 20 seconds slower per 400 if it's a steep hill). You can do it any way you want, of course, but the best gains will come from running hard.

ok I misunderstood that the first time.

So you'd take your all-out mile pace and just divide it by 4 for the 400m pace?? I think I actually run my 400's faster than that (when I do them... it's been nearly a year).

[Ironboy]

I'm not very scientific about it but my goal is to find a pace where I go as hard as I can but that the last one is as fast as the first.

So I may start with an effort that is lower than I can do, knowing that by the 3rd repeat holding that pace will get tougher.

Usually takes me 2 (sometimes 3) sessions of going out too fast before I find the right pace.

But that's just me.

[a-slow-5]

Take this from someone that chose not to do hill training for my first 1/2, but will hill train for my upcoming 1/2 in October.

Here is my approach. I take each training session one at a time and focus on what I want from it at that time. Hills are made out to be the demon of all demons, for runners, by runners. I want to slay my demons, one hill at a time, one day at a time. I've run them too hard and come away feeling frustrated and defeated. I've run them steady, with the intent of conquering each one slowly and come away feeling totally in control of my destiny. Now that I know the difference, and can focus on that, I have an entirely different attitutude toward hills. I will know on each day I run my hills what purpose they will serve on that day and I will approach them in that mindset. In the end, I know I will come away stronger, both mentally and physically.

[turd ferguson]

If I vomit at the top of the hill, I was going too fast, and I dial it back on the next repeat. Its not supposed to feel comfortable.

The latest thing I've added to my hills is a short run at the top of each hill. My favourite hill is about 400m long, about 8.5% grade, instead of struggling at the top I focus on finishing the hill strong, pushing through the crest, then running at the same intensity for a couple more minutes on the flat ground at the top before heading back down the hill again.

[CAW]

One thing I will do differently next time:

Not run hills right after lunch!

I'm thinking that hill training will now be a first-thing-in-the-morning-before-breakfast thing.

Of course, my choice of lunch wasn't exactly ideal for running either...I don't think anyone wants 10 McNuggets threatening to come up after 5 hills. I didn't run so hard I'd puke...but I certainly felt heavy and slow. "I don't sweat, I leak bacon grease." as Scotty says.

I'll chalk that one up as a lesson learned.

[a-slow-5]

It may be a lesson but you still got it done! Good on ya! One down..... _____ to go!

[spaff]

Another vote here for hilly tempo runs. You sort of get the best of both worlds in one workout and sounds very specific for the course that you'll be running on race day. That way you can also add an interval or fartlek workout, in addition, to your training week if you like.

The benefit of doing flat out hill sprints is that it is the most effective way to improve fitness very quickly, if you have been away from racing or training for a while. However, with that comes a greater risk of potential injury. If you decide to go that route, but sure to warmup and stretch well before you hit the hills and still ease into the first few reps.

Anther method, I'll sometimes suggest is to run continuous up and down a hill at roughly the same speed for a set period of time...say 20 minutes. This almost becomes a tempo type workout too. Focus on smooth form with a quick turnover on the way up and relax somewhat on the way down.

Enjoy!

Derrick