What is a marathon pace run supposed to feel like?

[BJH]

I'm running the Road2Hope marathon in November. I was away in Asia on business for the month after Dirty Girls but managed to get a reasonable amount of mileage in. Once I was back ion Canada, I jumped into the latter part of Higdon's advanced Marathon plan (sort of, I switched a few weeks around because it suited life better) and it has pace runs on Saturday prior to the Sunday long runs. I had picked a pace based on a conservative predicted marathon time from my half marathon PB in May and did a couple of pace runs based on that (6:00/km). Today was pretty hard to stay on pace. I really felt like going faster, so I went with it (5:46/km). My legs felt it a bit at the end, but I could have kept going at that pace for a while more.

Is that what it's supposed to feel like? Either one of those paces will result in a massive PB.

Some other random information:
- I run my long runs pretty slow and do speed work once a week with a run club
- mileage for 2011 has been between 200-250km/month. September looks like it will come in around 300km.
- I have run some big weeks, but the mileage tends to be spread pretty evenly rather than a really long run.
- my current marathon PB (4:33:xx) was run last year at Road2Hope. I was slightly hungover. I'm not planning that for this year.

[La]

I'll be interested to hear the answer to this...

[jes]

How long are the Saturday pace runs?

I'm interested in hearing responses as well. I have a hard time believing in making a jump between, for example, a 6:30 min/km LSD pace for 32k and a 6:00 min/km race pace for 42k. I know that's the point of the pace runs, but unless they're pretty long, do they do any good?

[HCcD]

My Coach(es) in my Spring Cycle had me running my Saturday runs at half marathon pace +10 to 15 seconds for up to 15 to 20K ... which was at around 4:40-4:45mpk pace .... In my current cycle, for Hamiton, they have me going at my 1/2 marathon pace at +/ - 10 seconds ... so anywhere from 4:20 to 4:40 mpk pace ... but, only maxing out at 8 to 12K ...

I am also doing speedwork and hill repeats during the week, as well, during this cycle ..

[HCcD]

Kinda kool that the first 3 Maniacs on this thread is running the marathon in Hamilton or on November 6th ... ..

Trust the program, Jes, take the totality of your overall paces and schedule, and not just on your weekend race pace / lsd efforts ... My lsd pace is usually between 5:45-6:30mpk, depending on who I am running with .. and, project race pace for Hamilton is around 4:45-4:50mpk for 42.2K ...

[jes]

My Coach(es) in my Spring Cycle had me running my Saturday runs at half marathon pace +10 to 15 seconds for up to 15 to 20K ... which was at around 4:40-4:45mpk pace .... In my current cycle, for Hamiton, they have me going at my 1/2 marathon pace at +/ - 10 seconds ... so anywhere from 4:20 to 4:40 mpk pace ... but, only maxing out at 8 to 12K ...

I am also doing speedwork and hill repeats during the week, as well, during this cycle ..

And with the same coaches, I have tempo runs on Saturday which are supposed to be 10K pace +15 sec, and they are up to about 7k. I know these runs are helping in my shorter races, but do they translate to improvements in the marathon?

[La]

Kinda kool that the first 3 Maniacs on this thread is running the marathon in Hamilton or on November 6th ... ..

I'm running NYC, not Hamilton. Same day, though.

[BJH]

How long are the Saturday pace runs?

I'm interested in hearing responses as well. I have a hard time believing in making a jump between, for example, a 6:30 min/km LSD pace for 32k and a 6:00 min/km race pace for 42k. I know that's the point of the pace runs, but unless they're pretty long, do they do any good?

The pace runs are 16k in hard weeks, 10k in cutback weeks. Today was 16k (actually 15.5k because I mis-programmed my Garmin. )

I do my long runs at 6:45-7:00/km and the half marathon was run at 5:31/km with no taper.

[jes]

How long are the Saturday pace runs?

I'm interested in hearing responses as well. I have a hard time believing in making a jump between, for example, a 6:30 min/km LSD pace for 32k and a 6:00 min/km race pace for 42k. I know that's the point of the pace runs, but unless they're pretty long, do they do any good?

The pace runs are 16k in hard weeks, 10k in cutback weeks. Today was 16k (actually 15.5k because I mis-programmed my Garmin. )

I do my long runs at 6:45-7:00/km and the half marathon was run at 5:31/km with no taper.

Interesting. My long runs are usually in the same range, but my half was a 6:18 (no taper as well), but I know I could have gone faster. I can't even dream of doing a marathon at 6:00 or faster (at this point). (But that's me, not you )

[HCcD]

My Coach(es) in my Spring Cycle had me running my Saturday runs at half marathon pace +10 to 15 seconds for up to 15 to 20K ... which was at around 4:40-4:45mpk pace .... In my current cycle, for Hamiton, they have me going at my 1/2 marathon pace at +/ - 10 seconds ... so anywhere from 4:20 to 4:40 mpk pace ... but, only maxing out at 8 to 12K ...

I am also doing speedwork and hill repeats during the week, as well, during this cycle ..

And with the same coaches, I have tempo runs on Saturday which are supposed to be 10K pace +15 sec, and they are up to about 7k. I know these runs are helping in my shorter races, but do they translate to improvements in the marathon?

Take a looksie at your Army 1/2 performance ....

I ran today's 10K at my current 10K pace, as it turned out, and it actually felt comfortable ...

You are getting your body and mind use to running at your 10K pace or faster, on a regular basis, and along with the speedworkouts and hill workouts during the rest of the week, the program should allow you to handle that marathon pace, in particular with a full taper .. all things being equal on rest day ...

For me, after speedwork and tempo, I find my race pace relative comfortable now ...

This cycle, I am only running between 50-80K or so a week, but lots of faster paces and higher intensity than last cycle ... while, I ran a lot of volume with no hills and limited speedwork ... but long tempo/race pace ..

I believe the key is to go with a program for at least a year to reap the training effects, rather than just a singele cycle, to adapt for adaptation, etc. So, if for whatever reasons, it doesn't happen in Hamilton, I am willing to stick with the program for another cycle, next May, wherever it may be ..

[Jwolf]

It's pretty hard to say because it depends on a lot of things including how rested you are before the run, how long the run is, your total mileage, etc. But the short answer for people that are in the 4-4:30 marathon range is that it should feel harder than an easy run but not TOO hard (kind of like the top end of your natural easy pace range), and definitely not as hard as a tempo run.

That said, my MP portions of my long run on Thursday felt pretty tough. Yet they were only 6 sec/km slower than my 16k easy run on Tuesday (5:34/km vs 5:40/km). So I'm still trying to figure it out.

[HCcD]

How long are the Saturday pace runs?

I'm interested in hearing responses as well. I have a hard time believing in making a jump between, for example, a 6:30 min/km LSD pace for 32k and a 6:00 min/km race pace for 42k. I know that's the point of the pace runs, but unless they're pretty long, do they do any good?

The pace runs are 16k in hard weeks, 10k in cutback weeks. Today was 16k (actually 15.5k because I mis-programmed my Garmin. )

I do my long runs at 6:45-7:00/km and the half marathon was run at 5:31/km with no taper.

Interesting. My long runs are usually in the same range, but my half was a 6:18 (no taper as well), but I know I could have gone faster. I can't even dream of doing a marathon at 6:00 or faster (at this point). (But that's me, not you )

Is it possible that you may need to re-adjust your training paces, across the board?

[HCcD]

It's pretty hard to say because it depends on a lot of things including how rested you are before the run, how long the run is, your total mileage, etc. But the short answer for people that are in the 4-4:30 marathon range is that it should feel harder than an easy run but not TOO hard (kind of like the top end of your natural easy pace range), and definitely not as hard as a tempo run.

That said, my MP portions of my long run on Thursday felt pretty tough. Yet they were only 6 sec/km slower than my 16k easy run on Tuesday (5:34/km vs 5:40/km). So I'm still trying to figure it out.

Are you also, by chance, happening to be running a marathon on November 6th, as well ???

[Jwolf]

How long are the Saturday pace runs?

I'm interested in hearing responses as well. I have a hard time believing in making a jump between, for example, a 6:30 min/km LSD pace for 32k and a 6:00 min/km race pace for 42k. I know that's the point of the pace runs, but unless they're pretty long, do they do any good?

This is really quite doable if the rest of the training is there. Esp for someone like BJH with a solid sub-2:00 half-marathon time and lots of mileage. Some programs don't even have MP runs but do have other speedwork - you can't look at just the long run pace in isolation.

[Jwolf]

Are you also, by chance, happening to be running a marathon on November 6th, as well ???

So far all of us in this thread are.

[HCcD]

How long are the Saturday pace runs?

I'm interested in hearing responses as well. I have a hard time believing in making a jump between, for example, a 6:30 min/km LSD pace for 32k and a 6:00 min/km race pace for 42k. I know that's the point of the pace runs, but unless they're pretty long, do they do any good?

This is really quite doable if the rest of the training is there. Esp for someone like BJH with a solid sub-2:00 half-marathon time and lots of mileage. Some programs don't even have MP runs but do have other speedwork - you can't look at just the long run pace in isolation.

I think you, La and Marg should just skp NYC this year and come to where the real party is gonna be on November 6th .. Hamilton, Baby !!!

[Marg]

I have nothing of value to add but feel compelled to post here for the Nov 6th connection.

[HCcD]

I have nothing of value to add but feel compelled to post here for the Nov 6th connection.

Perhaps, we could rename this thread as the 11-6-11 Club ...

[mas_runner]

When I was training for a marathon I did my easy runs at 6:00/km and then ran the race at ~5:20/km for the race. It felt pretty easy for about 24kms and after that I had to slow it down to 5:30 for the next 5km and then 5:40 for the next 5 km and so on. Last 10km were HARD but it felt just about right.

Maybe you should experiment with some shorter marathon paced runs and try different paces over 15-18 kms..

[Jwolf]

When I was training for a marathon I did my easy runs at 6:00/km and then ran the race at ~5:20/km for the race. It felt pretty easy for about 24kms and after that I had to slow it down to 5:30 for the next 5km and then 5:40 for the next 5 km and so on. Last 10km were HARD but it felt just about right...

The question wasn't how it should feel in the race, but how it should feel as a training run. Totally different in my experience. And the last 10k feel tough no matter what pace and no matter how well or poorly you pace. I slowed down to about 6:30/km in the last 10k of my last marathon (from about 5:35/km) and the last 10k felt much harder than the first.

[PinkLady]

The question wasn't how it should feel in the race, but how it should feel as a training run. Totally different in my experience. And the last 10k feel tough no matter what pace and no matter how well or poorly you pace. I slowed down to about 6:30/km in the last 10k of my last marathon (from about 5:35/km) and the last 10k felt much harder than the first.

Goodness. This is making re-evaluate *ever* wanting to do a full.

[jes]

How long are the Saturday pace runs?

I'm interested in hearing responses as well. I have a hard time believing in making a jump between, for example, a 6:30 min/km LSD pace for 32k and a 6:00 min/km race pace for 42k. I know that's the point of the pace runs, but unless they're pretty long, do they do any good?

The pace runs are 16k in hard weeks, 10k in cutback weeks. Today was 16k (actually 15.5k because I mis-programmed my Garmin. )

I do my long runs at 6:45-7:00/km and the half marathon was run at 5:31/km with no taper.

Interesting. My long runs are usually in the same range, but my half was a 6:18 (no taper as well), but I know I could have gone faster. I can't even dream of doing a marathon at 6:00 or faster (at this point). (But that's me, not you )

Is it possible that you may need to re-adjust your training paces, across the board?

Is that question for me or BJH?

[scrumhalfgirl]

Not doing a marathon on November 6th, but enjoying this interesting discussion!

I just looked back in my log from 2009 when I did my last full - my long runs were 5:58-6:00 min/km., and my race pace ended up being 5:37 (was targeting 5:40). During that training cycle, my "easy" pace - the pace I normally went at when I went out for a regular 5-8km run, but wasn't trying on purpose to go slowly, dropped from around 6 min to 5:40 - so my easy and race paces were very similar.

I didn't do any marathon pace work during that training cycle. my tempo runs were at around half pace (I ran a 1:48 half during that training cycle).

[HCcD]

How long are the Saturday pace runs?

I'm interested in hearing responses as well. I have a hard time believing in making a jump between, for example, a 6:30 min/km LSD pace for 32k and a 6:00 min/km race pace for 42k. I know that's the point of the pace runs, but unless they're pretty long, do they do any good?

The pace runs are 16k in hard weeks, 10k in cutback weeks. Today was 16k (actually 15.5k because I mis-programmed my Garmin. )

I do my long runs at 6:45-7:00/km and the half marathon was run at 5:31/km with no taper.

Interesting. My long runs are usually in the same range, but my half was a 6:18 (no taper as well), but I know I could have gone faster. I can't even dream of doing a marathon at 6:00 or faster (at this point). (But that's me, not you )

Is it possible that you may need to re-adjust your training paces, across the board?

Is that question for me or BJH?

For you, specifically ... and, actually for BJH, as well, since you mentioned it ...

[mas_runner]

Goodness. This is making re-evaluate *ever* wanting to do a full.

I'd recommend doing it, just to feel that last 10km, it is indescribable to be honest, you want it so bad, it hurts so much, you just keep on driving yourself forward, it is the best/worst experience of my running life, when you hit that line after all that you have been through, you feel....i'm going to let you find that out for yourself