ATB Training Option?

[KenJ]

I have been considering the Around the Bay race but I am unsure if I have time to prepare for it. I contacted my local running room and they have a marathon clinic starting on Jan 8th which I have told their 30K LSD would coincide with the race date which I was told I could just run rather than race. It looks like Fartlek and Speed training would not start until the 14-17 week mark but tempo Tues would still apply.
Now I am currently in "maintenace mode" trying to get out 4-5 times a week. Mostly nice easy running more by feel not really checking my Garmin. These tend to be 6-8 km distance and my pace tends to fall into the 5:10-5:30 min/km range. My last major race was the STWHM (half) in Oct where I PB with 1:47.
I also do a LSD on Sun around the 10-12 km range sometimes on dirt trails in my local park.
Would it be possible for me to actually do around 5 min race pace or am I pushing this too much? Feedback is most appreciated.

Ken

[Jwolf]

If you've never done 5:00/km or faster for a half, it seems like you'd need more time to get to 5:00/km for 30k (unless you are still riding a very steep improvement curve). But a pace of 5:15-5:20/km is reasonable or even a bit faster with decent training.

[Irongirl]

The feedback that I give most often for the ATB race is that it is MORE than a half marathon + 9km, due to the location of the rolling hills.

Your half marathon in October wasn't quite 5 min/km - so, increasing your distance AND speeding up over a further distance would be quite the goal, IMO.

You can definitely do the marathon training clinic - it does line up nicely for ATB though, and, you could start your hill/speed work earlier than them.

[La]

Is 30K a new distance for you, or have you done longer than a half marathon before? If it's your first time at that distance then you're entering into unknown territory, so having a time/pace expectation might be unrealistic.

I ran ATB for the first time as part of my marathon training program (clinic started in January, ran ATB in March and NCM in May). At the time, that was the longest distance I'd ever run.

[orleansrunner1962]

I did like La when I ran ATB, and simply used ATB as a "practice" for my marathon race pace..... like others have mentioned, it is a tougher course, with hills in the final km's of the course.... good luck with your training!

[Doonst]

When I hit 2:30 at ATB (5 minute pace) I had been running 1:42 halfs the previous fall.

[ian]

nice easy running more by feel ... and my pace tends to fall into the 5:10-5:30 min/km range

If the fast end of your "easy running" pace is basically that of your 21K PB, then it is clear that endurance is by far your biggest limiter (i.e., the engine is strong but the gas tank is small). Three months might be enough training to bridge this pace from 21K to 30K, but even if it isn't, the marathon clinic sounds like an ideal way to keep your fitness progressing over the winter. Expect your race day pace to be 5:low, with a more specific forecast to be determined after you see how the training goes.

[La]

Another thing to consider: training for a 30K race as the goal is different than having a 30K race as part of a build toward a marathon. It's likely that the marathon clinic won't be tapering before ATB and will just train right through it, using it as a training run. You may need to adjust your schedule if you want to "race" ATB as opposed to just running it.

[Blair]

I believe that any time you step up in distance, it should be done as a training run not as a race. The body (and mind) need to get use to hitting the distance reasonably comfortably. Then one can work on improving performance at that distance. The training run can be done in a race with all the benefits of traffic control, aid stations, etc. But the effort should be controlled. Finishing upright and smiling is key!

[Irongirl]

I believe that any time you step up in distance, it should be done as a training run not as a race. The body (and mind) need to get use to hitting the distance reasonably comfortably. Then one can work on improving performance at that distance. The training run can be done in a race with all the benefits of traffic control, aid stations, etc. But the effort should be controlled. Finishing upright and smiling is key!

Oh, I totally disagree!

My first 21.1, 30, 42.2 were definitely done as a "race."

If I did my first 21.1 as a training run, at my then-training pace of 7:00/km, I would have been 21 minutes slower!

[Mid_Packer]

When I hit 2:30 at ATB (5 minute pace) I had been running 1:42 halfs the previous fall.

Last time I hit 2:30 at ATB (2011) I wasn't finished yet !

However a review of my signiture line shows that in 2008 I was 1:42 at the chilly half and 2.31 at ATB, same figures as Doonst

[Jogger Barbie]

FWIW, I tend to agree with the comments along the lines of "you have time to prepare for the distance, but maybe not for a 5:00 min/km pace". If you want to race ATB, rather than do it as a training run, La's point about the marathon clinic not building in a taper for ATB is a very good one. I am pretty sure that there is a training schedule on the ATB website - you could maybe take a look at that, and then do a bit of "tweaking" to the marathon clinic training runs. That way you have company and support through the winter, but your focus would be a little different.

For yet another pace comparison, I ran a 1:43 half in September 2006 and then my first ATB in 2:29 in March 2007.

One last piece of training advice: if you have not already started taking in sports drinks and/or gels and/or whatever other energy source works for you, that is something you will also need to factor into your training. It is possible to do a half marathon on just water, but (IMHO and experience) not 30 km. I learned this the hard way at my first ATB when I ran out of gas somewhere around the 25 km point (after climbing the big hill). Thank heavens it was downhill to the finish because I think gravity got me there.

ATB is a terrific race so I hope you decide to go for it!

[KenJ]

Thank you to everybody for your great advice. Your comments seem very resonable.

After considering this I have decided to go for it!! I am now registered in my very first ATB. I also decided to register for the marathon clinic to help me along.

My primary goal will be "to finish" at a pace that is reasonable and comfortable based upon how my training progresses over the next few weeks and to stay healthy and injury free. As I get closer to the date I will assess if a time goal is in the cards or not and if I should taper or just push through as a "training" run. I believe that a sub 3 hr goal is at least reasonable.

Ken

[laurenruns]

Hey everyone. I'm running ATB this year with a sub 2:35 goal. Last year was 2:40 with an atrocious 5k between 15-20k (serious cramping) but finished strong. I'm feeling pretty on par for my goal as I've worked a lot on fueling my long runs this year.
I signed up for the Goodlife marathon in Toronto which is 6 weeks after ATB. I don't have a serious time goal in mind but anything in the 3:45 range would make me happy. I basically want to finish it feeling a modicum of control and not completely crumbling.
Does anyone have any advice on the quick turnaround between these events? I feel as though people must do it every year however am torn as to how to optimize the few weeks of training I have between ATB and the taper for the marathon. I plan on 'racing' ATB and I've done this race a couple of times to know that I will be able to do easy runs 3 or 4 days after but I don't know about going out and trying to log 20 miles the following weekend.
I don't have issues getting in good runs during the work week but am more worried about structuring my long runs.
ie. March 24 - ATB 30k
31st - 13ish miles
7th April - 20 miles?
April 14 - 16-18 miles
April 21 - 20-22 miles????
April 28 - 10ish
May 5 -race

Is this too much too close to the race? My last marathon was in 2008, severely undertrained and going in with an IT injury - crawling to the finish in 4:15.
This is getting wordy so I'll sign off. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[purdy65]

I did this in 2011. ATB followed by Goodlife in May. I found that it was plenty of time to recover from ATB and work up to a couple of long runs before Goodlife. Goodlife is my PB. I did have a bit of a lull in my training between the two due to a vacation, but I actually found that it helped!

I also did ATB last year followed 3 weeks later by Boston, but we'll never know how that really would have worked out, due to the heat in Boston. Many believe those two are too close together.

Look back at my training schedule, I did take a cutback week immediately following ATB, then a couple of heavy weeks, vacation (I did run, but it was minimal, and not good quality) , 1 heavy week and taper.

I was perplexed for a while about how this could have been such a good marathon for me, but in hindsight, it was the built in rest that helped I think!

[La]

And ATB is actually a week earlier than usual this year because of Easter being the following weekend (usually it's the last Sunday in March).

6 weeks is plenty of time to recover and get back on track for your marathon in May.

[HCcD]

Let me start of with my perverbial ... It depends ....

How many 30K+ runs would you have completed, including ATB in this session ?? Historically, how long have your final taper weeks been? 2, 3 or 4 weeks? As it appears that you will only be allowing yourself a 2 week taper after completing your final lsd effort, if my math is correct ...

From It's My Run ... in 2011, I ran a 2:20:xx PB @ATB then followed up with another 32K lsd the following week then a 4 week taper to Vancouver, which is the same weekend as Toronto GoodLife ... with lsd runs of 15-23K runs during the taper period ... and, came away with a 3:30:xx pb in Vancouver ...

In 2012, I ran ATB in 2:21:xx then followed up the week after with a 31K lsd, and another 34K the following week, with a 3 week taper to Vancouver, with a couple of 1/2 marathon races (one race pace and the other tempo) and came up short in Vancouver with a 3:44:xx .... as I bonked at about 33-34K mark ..

You could go something like 13-16 miles the week after, then 20-22 miles the next week, followed by a nice long taper ... of 13-14 miles, 8-10 miles, and 5-8 miles, respectively ..

[laurenruns]

Thanks for the feedback everyone! To answer your questions my long runs so far have topped out at 2 x 18 miles (this past weekend being one of them). I have done 6 runs of 14-16 miles. I just signed up for Goodlife on a whim last week which is why I'm concerned about getting a couple 20-22 mile runs in between the two races. My mileage typically has been hovering around the 45 mile mark.
I don't tend to do too well with tapering - usually 2 weeks is my max however I always try to make my last hard long run 3 weeks out from race day at the very latest.
Purdy65 - your 2011 is almost identical as I am going on vacation mid-April as well and am worried about getting some runs in! Palm Springs was deathly hot last year when I went at this time and my 6am runs were rough to say the least. You are right though that the rest may pay dividends and I'll keep that in mind!
I know I'll have to play it by ear but I'm thinking if I truly focus on recovery the 4-5 days after ATB (instead of lying on the couch and justifying pizza three days in a row) I could get in a good long slow run the next weekend and maybe work up to long runs with MP the couple of weeks after that.
Again, thanks for the great advice!

[Ken B]

I am running ATB this year and hope for a PB ( which would be under 3:14 ). I also am running Boston this year. I have run two marathons in a month a couple of times with one or the other intentionally running at an easier pace. This year I have the Chilly Half this Sunday, ATB in three weeks, then Boston Marathon on April 15. Just to make things interesting, I am registered for the Shiprock, New Mexico Marathon on May 4th. If I am still upright and kicking, I have agreed to pace a runningmaniac for a loop of the Sulphur Springs Trail race on May 25.
Now you people know why my training continues to be at a relatively high level all winter!!

BTW - to our Newbies - We meet at Section 122 in Copps Coliseum before and after ATB.