Julie Miller now running ultras

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Julie Miller now running ultras

Postby ultraslacker » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:21 pm

http://runningmagazine.ca/julie-miller- ... marathons/

Synopsis: she's been banned from triathlons for cheating, and has now taken up ultra running.

Thoughts?

My first thought was that it's a lot easier to cheat in most trail ultras because a lot of them aren't chip timed and often you're in the middle of nowhere by yourself so no one is watching you. If you *could* cut the course (depends on the course) you might be more likely to get away with it.

My second thought was that the ultra running community is in general pretty low-key and casual. She'll probably be accepted because we're very forgiving. But at the same time, we don't have a lot of measures in place for this kind of thing. :/

I personally will always wonder, if/when she wins a race, whether it's legit. Reputation-wise, she's probably better off not to race.
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Re: Julie Miller now running ultras

Postby Habs4ever » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:32 pm

As far as I know she has never apologized for cheating or even admitted she cheated. I know people can change but in light of her past behaviour I would be very suspicious of any wins.
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Re: Julie Miller now running ultras

Postby deerdree » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:48 pm

interesting to compare her story with the 'related' article about the woman who was banned for doping.

this is an interesting question. every time i type out an opinion, i change my mind. but i guess i agree with the race director who said he wouldn't be comfortable not allowing her to race. and i hope that they have mechanisms in place to verify, especially since she's been winning.

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Re: Julie Miller now running ultras

Postby ian » Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:21 pm

I actually think it would be harder to get away with cheating in most ultras because the fields are small and so many of the racers and volunteers know each other. While it's natural to be suspicious of individuals who have cheated in the past, that's on us either to be extra-vigilant or to otherwise not let it affect our enjoyment of the events. It's a slippery slope to advocate for additional sanctions beyond those associated with the original incident (e.g., bans from other sports, losing her job, restraining orders from neighbors that don't want their children near her, etc.).

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Re: Julie Miller now running ultras

Postby Jwolf » Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:11 pm

Low key and casual is good for being welcoming into the community, allowing people to run even if they can't complete a course in the official time, etc. But low-key and casual doesn't mean ultra-runners would accept a documented cheater. I certainly wouldn't want to see her in a race that I was in if I were a competitive ultrarunner.

ian wrote: It's a slippery slope to advocate for additional sanctions beyond those associated with the original incident (e.g., bans from other sports, losing her job, restraining orders from neighbors that don't want their children near her, etc.).
.

That's a pretty steep slope to get from cheating in sports to threats to children.

Ultrarunning and triathlon competitions aren't that far apart, especially since the potential mechanism for cheating (course-cutting) would be the same.

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Re: Julie Miller now running ultras

Postby Dstew » Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:48 pm

Odds are that given the number of races each person has run and the size of the fields, etc, etc that every single person has likely been beaten by at least one cheater. If this thought somehow diminished an accomplishment then it would likely bother you that a known cheater has entered an ultra you signed up for. If it does not bother you, then it would not likely bother you.

My goal for the first 10 K race of the year is out of a field of around 2,500, I would like to finish top 10 in my age category and top 150 against the field. This motivates me to push and test myself a little on my runs and workouts but for me, within relatively "healthy" bounds. Given this topic, if I were to finish 11th and 151st because someone in my age group cheated and denied me by just reward, my thought was more pity for the cheater then anger over my "loss". How pathetic a person and/or their life must be in order to cheat in order to "win" in a hobby where one is paying for the privilege to compete. I cannot comprehend how there is any joy, any satisfaction or sense of accomplishment in not actually reaching a goal. How hollow and superficial it must all be and thus how damaged someone must be to do to those lengths. Thus there cheating has no impact on what I am doing and what I accomplished.

In the interest of full disclosure, in the last trail race I ran, I busted my butt to move up about 5 places in the standings. There were around 40 finishers and in killing myself, I moved up from 17th or so to 12th or so. This meant nothing to me and if I had any regrets, it was pushing myself so hard for so little real and substantial reward. And if someone had cheated and beat me, it would not have any impact on my view of how I ran the race and how I should have run the race. I have picked races where I knew I had a good chance at finishing in the top 3 overall or in my age category. I am not saying it was not fun to win a medal but on the other hand nor is it that bad if I do not. One of my best experiences was that I won my age category, the timer screwed up and put me in the younger category and so finished 4th. I was just about the say something but instead, full of satisfaction and a sense of achievement, I got into my car and drove away happy my view of the event was not tainted or even really impacted by external forces. It did not hurt knowing due the incompetence of the time keeper that I had eaten lunch, showered and was relaxing on my deck about the time medals would have been awarded.

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Re: Julie Miller now running ultras

Postby tayken » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:41 am

hmmm.....some interesting opinions so far on here. However, could this be a case of "once a cheater, always a cheater" as in personal relationships???? How many will forgive a spouse that cheats
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Winterman 10km - (1st in age group) - Feb 19,
Chilly Half Marathon - Mar 5 (Done)
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Limestone 1/2 - Apr 30,
Ottawa race weekend Voyager Challenge - May 27-28,
Spring Fling Toronto - June?
World Record Kilt Run Perth - June 24
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Re: Julie Miller now running ultras

Postby eme » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:44 am

Personally, I have very little tolerance for cheating/doping in sport.

There are far too many people who bust their @sses through hard work to achieve their goals to see cheaters (of any kind) win.

I think that our many sports governing bodies are fragmented (i.e. Tri Canada ban doesn't have any weight for other sanctioned events) and that does not help. I personally believe that if a documented (and sanctioned) cheater wants to race, that they should be able to participate but be out of contention for any placement.

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Re: Julie Miller now running ultras

Postby ian » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:54 am

tayken wrote:How many will forgive a spouse that cheats

Or in this case, divorce them and have them banned from any future relationship.

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Re: Julie Miller now running ultras

Postby Jwolf » Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:38 pm

ian wrote:
tayken wrote:How many will forgive a spouse that cheats

Or in this case, divorce them and have them banned from any future relationship.


Ian- by your "slippery slope" argument she really should only receive punishment for the event(s) she cheated in. That she should be disqualified and removed from the race results, but that she should be forgiven and allowed to participate again as long as she doesn't cheat again?

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Re: Julie Miller now running ultras

Postby ian » Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:10 pm

Jwolf wrote:Ian- by your "slippery slope" argument she really should only receive punishment for the event(s) she cheated in. That she should be disqualified and removed from the race results, but that she should be forgiven and allowed to participate again as long as she doesn't cheat again?

You're trying to corner me into drawing a specific line where none exists. Obviously the races she cheated in are out, and if there was actual prize money involved (not just shiny trinkets or qualification eligibility), fraud charges are a possibility. The triathlon sanctioning group can (and did) impose a blanket ban on their races. I don't see how any of these sanctions equate to "forgiveness".

Instead, you're suggesting that it is some sort of "common sense" that the organizers of a completely different sporting event need to impose a ban. While this is certainly up to the discretion of the race organizers, they're hardly condoning cheating by declining to do so. If you'd be uncomfortable being in an event like this then don't participate. Insisting that there is no room for compromise here implies to me that you might have something in common with those you seek to exclude: a belief that winning and losing is the most important aspect of these events.

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Re: Julie Miller now running ultras

Postby tayken » Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:25 pm

Hmmmm...things seem to be getting a bit heated in this thread, and I think it will help if people just take a breather :D As someone mentioned above, as long as prize money isn't being handed out to the cheater, then perhaps they can be accommodated.
On the books for 2017

Winterman 10km - (1st in age group) - Feb 19,
Chilly Half Marathon - Mar 5 (Done)
Around the bay 30k - Mar 26, (Done)
Limestone 1/2 - Apr 30,
Ottawa race weekend Voyager Challenge - May 27-28,
Spring Fling Toronto - June?
World Record Kilt Run Perth - June 24
Foam Fest 5k Ottawa - Jul 22
Pure Protein Night Race - Aug 12
Army Run Vimy Challenge - Sep 17
Marathon Du P'tit Train Du Nord Quebec - Oct 22

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Re: Julie Miller now running ultras

Postby ian » Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:44 pm

tayken wrote:Hmmmm...things seem to be getting a bit heated in this thread, and I think it will help if people just take a breather

Note to newcomers: Jennifer and I have met many times in real life and there's no hostility here. I just happen to be a bit of a contrarian when it comes to this particular topic.

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Re: Julie Miller now running ultras

Postby ultraslacker » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:04 pm

ian wrote:
tayken wrote:Hmmmm...things seem to be getting a bit heated in this thread, and I think it will help if people just take a breather

Note to newcomers: Jennifer and I have met many times in real life and there's no hostility here. I just happen to be a bit of a contrarian when it comes to this particular topic.


I was going to say, if this is heated you should see some of the other threads we've had! :lol: :lol:
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Re: Julie Miller now running ultras

Postby ultraslacker » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:06 pm

to continue the analogy, a person doesn't need to be banned for life from having a relationship again, but full disclosure is important so that the next potential relationship-participant can make an informed decision.

Ultimately, the RDs can do as they please for their own races... but I personally will always doubt her legitimacy. Maybe she doesn't care if others doubt her... for me, integrity is utmost, and if there were any question I'd run races where there could be no question, or participate but not for wins and prizes. She WON Fat Dog last year... is that fair? Up to the RD I guess.
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Re: Julie Miller now running ultras

Postby Jwolf » Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:21 pm

ian wrote:
tayken wrote:Hmmmm...things seem to be getting a bit heated in this thread, and I think it will help if people just take a breather

Note to newcomers: Jennifer and I have met many times in real life and there's no hostility here. I just happen to be a bit of a contrarian when it comes to this particular topic.


Ha yes, we are good. :) But thanks for the concern, Tayken.

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Re: Julie Miller now running ultras

Postby Dstew » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:50 pm

One interesting point in the article was that it would appear we are moving to a point where the timing chips will have GPS functionality. It also hinted at a practical solution - anyone who wants to be eligible for a podium or qualifying time finish must wear a GPS watch and either the RD or a fellow competitor can request that it is immediately downloaded before any results are official.

As someone moving to a point where I am looking experiences and "rides" rather than races and results combined with an inability to comprehend how anyone would bother to cheat in order to win unless they were so damaged as to earn my pity and sympathy, I am fairly forgiving. But this did trigger a memory of a talk by a RD who was doing a mountain bike race with no prize money and did not qualify anyone for any other race. Although it was a "race" with timing chips, many participants were there merely to finish. So the Race Director was thrilled when Lance Armstrong suggested he would like to enter this event. The RD thanked Lance but thought he better check with the elite racers just in case. Almost without fail, all opposed the very idea of Lance riding with them even though it was merely for trinkets and bragging rights. From my perspective a no lose scenario. If I win, I have beaten the great Lance Armstrong. And if he beats me, it is because he cheated.

In thinking about this further, I wonder if you say it would not bother you, you view such events as a fun hobby that in the training and race day can be the most important thing in the world on the surface but under it all, relatively meaningless are more forgiving. Those who view this as a lifestyle, a part of their identity are less so?

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Re: Julie Miller now running ultras

Postby Annelizabeth » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:37 pm

I realise that she is BC and I am in Ontario but I would not want to share a course with her. Based on the evidence I have seen she is guilty and she has never admitted guilt. I would like to think I can forgive but as she has admitted no wrong doing...

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Re: Julie Miller now running ultras

Postby La » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:17 am

Annelizabeth wrote:I realise that she is BC and I am in Ontario but I would not want to share a course with her. Based on the evidence I have seen she is guilty and she has never admitted guilt. I would like to think I can forgive but as she has admitted no wrong doing...

Yes, lack of admission and remorse is the part that bugs me.
ultraslacker wrote:to continue the analogy, a person doesn't need to be banned for life from having a relationship again, but full disclosure is important so that the next potential relationship-participant can make an informed decision.

And again, the assumption is that the cheater has admitted they did it, are remorseful, and have apologized.

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Re: Julie Miller now running ultras

Postby deerdree » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:47 am

La wrote:
ultraslacker wrote:to continue the analogy, a person doesn't need to be banned for life from having a relationship again, but full disclosure is important so that the next potential relationship-participant can make an informed decision.

And again, the assumption is that the cheater has admitted they did it, are remorseful, and have apologized.

to me, disclosure doesn't necessarily have to mean that the person admits what they've done, it just has to be clear that they've been accused (or convicted as the case may be). that's why the related article about the woman who was banned for doping and registered using her maiden name was so interesting to me - i mean obviously there she thought she had something to hide. but julie miller is racing as julie miller. anyone can see her name on the list of participants. that said, it would be nice if people could pull out without financial penalty if she signed up for a race after they had. it would allow them to make a choice not to race against her. but i know that's not always feasible.

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Re: Julie Miller now running ultras

Postby Robinandamelia » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:38 am

Very easy to cheat in ultras. No mats, just check in at aid station (sometimes, not always). Easy to cut the course. I think Julie is running with a GPS watch and a person the whole time so that her finish is not called into question.

Oh and as small as the fields are, I've been in races and I'm completely by myself out there, for extended periods of time. I'm always amazed by that actually.

Not sure what the solution is, cheaters will cheat. Some people want what they want and get it however they can. It's unfortunate. If that's how someone wants to win.

I wouldn't want to share the course with her either. Or some of the others that have apparently been cheating. Seems to be going on way more than I knew about....

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Re: Julie Miller now running ultras

Postby Jwolf » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:10 am

deerdree wrote:
La wrote:
ultraslacker wrote:to continue the analogy, a person doesn't need to be banned for life from having a relationship again, but full disclosure is important so that the next potential relationship-participant can make an informed decision.

And again, the assumption is that the cheater has admitted they did it, are remorseful, and have apologized.

to me, disclosure doesn't necessarily have to mean that the person admits what they've done, it just has to be clear that they've been accused (or convicted as the case may be). that's why the related article about the woman who was banned for doping and registered using her maiden name was so interesting to me - i mean obviously there she thought she had something to hide. but julie miller is racing as julie miller. anyone can see her name on the list of participants. that said, it would be nice if people could pull out without financial penalty if she signed up for a race after they had. it would allow them to make a choice not to race against her. but i know that's not always feasible.

She has all the signs of a pathological liar-- and she essentially believes her own deception so she feels like she has nothing to hide.

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Re: Julie Miller now running ultras

Postby daddy_runner » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:40 am

Don't want her. She can move on to lawn bowling.
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Re: Julie Miller now running ultras

Postby Robinandamelia » Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:16 am

daddy_runner wrote:Don't want her. She can move on to lawn bowling.


This made me laugh.


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