How to keep hydration pack from freezing up?

[Jwolf]

I didn't really think it was THAT cold, honestly....it was -17C, maybe -20C with windchill, so it wasn't horrid......wonder what all the Winnipegers do with their packs as it gets much colder out in the 'pegs?

That's cold enough! And once it gets a few degrees below freezing it doesn't really matter how much lower it gets if the tube is uninsulated. (And windchill doesn't affect the freezing point).

[ceileigh]

well you could always add some antifreeze ... it's sweet!
(NOT!!!!)

[HCcD]

I didn't really think it was THAT cold, honestly....it was -17C, maybe -20C with windchill, so it wasn't horrid......wonder what all the Winnipegers do with their packs as it gets much colder out in the 'pegs?

The Winterpeggers put water in their packs ???

I thought they filled their's with beer, wine, gin, vodka, rum, beer, wine, etc ??

[PinkLady]

I didn't really think it was THAT cold, honestly....it was -17C, maybe -20C with windchill, so it wasn't horrid......wonder what all the Winnipegers do with their packs as it gets much colder out in the 'pegs?

That's cold enough! And once it gets a few degrees below freezing it doesn't really matter how much lower it gets if the tube is uninsulated. (And windchill doesn't affect the freezing point).

But my tube wasn't uninsulated....it had a neoprene sleeve on it. It didn't freeze/clog/slush in the first hour, but it did once I turned into the storm and was heading into the wind. So I still think the main problem is the neoprene not being windproof.

I'm very interested in seeing what UQ comes up with!!

Antifreeze? Hah, I think I'd stick with vodka. Though, might be dangerous what with the 'playing with traffic' part.....

[ceileigh]

Summit approach on Kilimanjaro we all asked about using boiled or boiling water in our packs to keep the water lines open. The guides, who had been up over 200 times, told us 'it's cold up there, no matter what you do it will freeze, put a water bottle in your inside pocket next to your body, that is the only thing that will work'

They were right ...

[gnu]

Okay, aside from having to put the whole pack under my jacket and looking like a humpback

Honestly, my running partner does this and it's not that noticeable.

Having said that, I wear my FB under my coat and don't really care that I look like the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man because at least I am not thirsty.... I figure the few people who actually come out in the cold weather and see me already think I am crazy (that is, IF they're even thinking about me at all - truth is, I am not that important!) for running in it, and probably aren't analysing how I look doing it.

[UltraQueenga]

Okay, aside from having to put the whole pack under my jacket and looking like a humpback

I'm still tweaking my winter running gear to get the best results in my long runs. I agree about the humpback visual, but as long as you can fit the pack under the jacket, who cares. Running with it under the jacket I found that I needed one less layer, which meant I felt less bundled up and more free to move.

Yesterday when I ran with my Nathan pack under my jacket, I felt the moisture was not trapped under the jacket as much. Better venting means staying dry and warm longer, which is critical.

On Saturday when I ran with the pack on top of my jacket, the sweat was trapped around my core and my shirts were soaked. I definitely like the pack under the jacket, even though it is more fussy to access, refill, etc.

[Spirit Unleashed]

Summit approach on Kilimanjaro we all asked about using boiled or boiling water in our packs to keep the water lines open. The guides, who had been up over 200 times, told us 'it's cold up there, no matter what you do it will freeze, put a water bottle in your inside pocket next to your body, that is the only thing that will work'

They were right ...

ahem.....I suggested a similar idea way up in this thread.

[PinkLady]

Summit approach on Kilimanjaro we all asked about using boiled or boiling water in our packs to keep the water lines open. The guides, who had been up over 200 times, told us 'it's cold up there, no matter what you do it will freeze, put a water bottle in your inside pocket next to your body, that is the only thing that will work'

They were right ...

ahem.....I suggested a similar idea way up in this thread.

I know you did, HP. I think I bunch of us are just in denial because we really LIKE our packs.....*clings*

[Spirit Unleashed]

Winter requires adjustments in preferences.

[Strider]

I run with a Backpack with my nutrition and extra/emergency gear in it, and use 2 of these bottles in the side pockets. 3+ hours, -15C and water is almost still room temperature.

[UltraQueenga]

I am just uploading a few photos on flickr to show you what I've come up with to insulate my bladder for long winter runs. I got the idea a while ago thinking about those Tim's boxes of coffee-to-go. I figured I needed an insulated bag of some kind for the bladder and some pipe wrap to insulate the hose, then some duct tape to cover the insulation and keep it neatly stuck.

This is a first prototype. I would like to find a better bag for the bladder and a better valve insulation, but for the time being it works and I'm not sure I'll have time to do a second prototype before my upcoming race in less than 3 weeks. Anyway, here's the skinny...

I started with 1 thermal bag from Tim Horton's 10cup box of coffee to go (I grabbed 2 empties from a recent event where they had Tim`s coffee, so it cost me $0.00)


I went out to browse the hardware store for pipe insulation or insulated tape of some sort. This was the best I could find: EPDM Pipe Insulation Wrap 3mm x 5cm x 3.66m roll for $7.xx. I looked at foil tape, but it is essentially aluminum foil on a sticky tape and the foil is not pliable, flexible, so I didn't even consider it. I did look up the manufacturer of the pipe wrap I bought and I saw they also make it with the shiny aluminum finish (as opposed to black). That might be a bit better, but it would have to be equally flexible and pliable as the black foamy wrap.


For the rest of the job I used stuff around my house: duct tape, a plastic thingie from a waterbottle cover (1.8cm diameter), string and a carabiner.

I carefully cut off the spout from the thermal bag and made sure the ring that's left is not sharp. I filed it down, then put some pipe wrap foam insulation on the inside and the outside, leaving a 2cm diameter hole for the insulated hose. As you can see, the hole is not in the middle of the bag, which is a bit of a pain to work with, because when you put the bladder inside, you kind of have to put it on an angle, not straight, so the hose can come through the hole well. When you fill it, you have to neatly fold it, because the bag is bigger than the Camelbak reservoir.




Next, I wrapped the hose with the pipe wrap. The pipe wrap is 5cm wide, but I cut a long 2.8-3cm strip and used that to wrap. The 5cm width is too wide and it will overlap, but the narrower 2.8-3cm strip worked well. I wrapped it slowly and tightly so there is no space between the wrapping. To finish it, I used duct tape. Again, the 5cm wide tape is too wide and overlaps a lot. You do want a bit of overlap when you put the duct tape on, but not too much.


For the valve, which is the trickiest part, because it can leak if it's too tight or the wrong shape, I used a plastic cover I got from a waterbottle. I looked around the house for something like a lid or a small cap, something that is round, about 2cm in diameter and about 2 cm long. I made a hole in the middle, insulated it with a bit of pipe wrap and made sure there is enough room for the Camelbak valve to slide on the hose when I reassemble the pack.


I built a valve cover to slide onto the plastic thingie. This was a pain, because the Camelbak valve is really sensitive and leaks if under pressure. The valve cap is built from pipe wrap, kinda brutal way, but worked ok. I put a string through it so it can hang from my shoulder strap.


I had the string hooked on the carabiner and the valve cover stayed on well. When drinking I just flicked off the cap, lifted the hose a bit and drank. I didn't even have to unhook it or anything, which was good.



Testing
Yesterday morning I went for a 7 hr and 5 min run and covered about 55km. I filled the bladder with about 2l of really warm lime gatorade, not a strong mix, just average. At 9:40AM when I left it was -20C (-33C with the wind chill), warmed to about -12C around early afternoon and by the time I got home just before 5:00PM it was -17C (-25C with the wind chill). I ran on the waterfront from one end of the city to the other. I had a 15 min break once to join CinC and maniacs at the Tim's for a cup of hot chocolate and a muffin and then had another 10 min break for a cup of chicken gumbo soup at Subway.

The system worked like a charm!!! I wore the pack under my jacket. I had warm gatorade for about 4 hrs straight and then it was slowly cooling as the level went down. After each drink I would remember to blow air back into the bladder to make sure there was no liquid in the hose (thanks for the tip folks!!) and it never froze on me. I went through about 4/5 of the gatorade I started with and even at the very end, it was not ice cold. After 7 hrs in everything from -20C to -12C to -17C, I'm happy with the results.

Yes, this insulation is a pain to build and kinda finicky to fill, but if you make it, you can handle it ok.

[PinkLady]

WOW, UQ!! You're like the Mythbusters!

I'm in awe. Thank you for posting your project, with all the pictures. Really appreciated! I also can't believe you ran in a single day what I run in a week, but that's neither here nor there.....

Some great ideas there, gives me some ideas to try for the tubing. I'm not out there long enough to worry about the bladder itself freezing.

[spaff]

Some great tips. Loved the tweaking you did with your pack Kinga.

The key with a pack really is to wear it under your jacket...especially if you can find a small (ie slim) enough pack. When I ran Rock and Ice in Yellowknife there were a number of people wearing these http://camelbak.com/Sports-Recreation/P ... -Mens.aspx that seemed to have success with it and considerably less bulky. Some found that having the hose come up under your arm instead of over your shoulder helped to prevent the line from freezing up as you could keep it in your jacket.

From the bottle end of things, I've recently discovered http://www.hydroflask.com and they are awesome. Hot for 12hrs, cold for 24hrs. Insulated, lightweight bottles that will fit in a waterbottle holder. You can also buy a sport cap as well.

For shorter runs and normal bottles, running with them upside down helps prevent the caps from freezing up.