Doubling up your runs.

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eljeffe
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Doubling up your runs.

Postby eljeffe » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:34 am

Is there any benefit to running twice per day? Obviously I'm not talking about splitting up a long run into 2 chunks, that would be ineffective for building on endurance, but how about doing 2 different workouts in the same day? Is anybody doing this? What are the pros/cons/concerns?

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Jwolf
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Postby Jwolf » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:49 am

Many people doing very high mileage do doubles because it's a good way to get in more mileage.

Just like fitting in any two of any sport workouts in a day, it's a good way to get in more running and mileage. If you run twice at least one should be an easy run, though, or you really can't expect to get much out of the second workout (unless you didn't try very hard on the first).
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Postby MichaelMc » Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:33 am

I'm currently running twice on Wednesdays. The advantage is it fits into my schedule and I can take Saturday off. The disadvantage is a shorter recovery time between runs. Given my Wife's insistance on ONE DAY FOR US... a double is well worth it :lol:

When I add the final 12k into my schedule (making 115k/week) in two weeks, it'll probably be two doubles. Possibly I'll get away with a 'before she wakes up' run on Saturday, though :wink:

I don't think doubles add anything other than extra laundry and showers, but nor do I think they take much away. Some people feel two shorter runs are less taxing, I find the resulting less rest between runs more taxing. Personal preference.

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Postby eljeffe » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:50 pm

I should have specified I'm not really looking to add junk miles, but rather purposeful workouts. Time constraints are becoming an issue. Looking for more takes on the pros and cons of say a morning hill run, evening speed session scenario.

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Postby scrumhalfgirl » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:53 pm

eljeffe wrote:I should have specified I'm not really looking to add junk miles, but rather purposeful workouts. Time constraints are becoming an issue. Looking for more takes on the pros and cons of say a morning hill run, evening speed session scenario.


I don't think you would benefit from this. You won't be recoverd from the hills in the morning, and so your speed work will be compromised.
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Postby runningreat » Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:04 pm

It depends on what kind of shape your in, what
your total training plan is and what part of the
season you are in.

For a distance runner, it is generally better to
add on to your one run until you get to pretty
high mileage. I know lots of top level college
cross country runners that don't get around to
two a days until they are running more than 65
miles each week in their primary runs.

Some middle distance runners can benefit
from two a days because it allows a mid-length
morning run and an afternoon speed workout.
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Postby ian » Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:09 pm

Does an Ironman training program have so many quality runs scheduled that running doubles are a consideration? Even a hardcore running-only athlete would have half of every double devoted to easy volume and a triathlete has two other sports to juggle.

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Postby eljeffe » Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:44 pm

ian wrote:Does an Ironman training program have so many quality runs scheduled that running doubles are a consideration? Even a hardcore running-only athlete would have half of every double devoted to easy volume and a triathlete has two other sports to juggle.


Remember, I'm training for the boston marathon at the moment, with the goal of lowering my marathon time. I'm additionally training for the ironman which is later in the year. I'm scheming up ways to get the most bang for my training buck. I'm not a traditional high mileage guy, but from the limited experimenting I've recently done with running 5 times per week instead of 3, I am noticing improvements. I'm sensing the concencus it to keep one workout light if I want to double up.

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Postby Robbie-T » Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:55 pm

I doubled up some for my last marathon, I think it helped to get in extra mileage, I was up over 100k weekly at the time, 6-7 days a week. I don't think you'll be successful getting in 2 quality runs on the same day, try for a easy 10k and a race pace 10k or tempo 10k.

Your legs will feel numb and like 2 big calluses after a few weeks, if you can keep the pace with numb legs you are ready for the marathon.
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Postby Strider » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:02 pm

Robbie-T wrote: if you can keep the pace with numb legs you are ready for the marathon.


Word Bro'

2-a-days are something you need to ease into. They take a lot out of you and you need to be fresh for the next day's workout.

Start with doing your quality workout in the morning and then 20:00 easy in the evening and increase the evening workout (only a couple of days per week, unless you are Spaff). With your tri training you might be better at them as you are more use to multi-workouts per day. For Boston i'd try to get your running to 6-days a week before throwing in the extra workout per day.
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Postby Robbie-T » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:12 pm

Strider wrote:For Boston i'd try to get your running to 6-days a week before throwing in the extra workout per day.


This is good idea.
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Postby MichaelMc » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:14 pm

I don't think more than 2-3 speed session per week is useful for even aggressive programs so why put two of them into one day? The point of training isn't to heap abuse onto the body, it is to encourage it to get stronger :lol:

I'm doing doubles because my mileage calls for it. Sometimes one of the runs IS a speed session, the other one is always EASY pace.

You say that extra running seems to help? Weird. :wink:

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Postby Jo-Jo » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:29 pm

eljeffe wrote:
ian wrote:Does an Ironman training program have so many quality runs scheduled that running doubles are a consideration? Even a hardcore running-only athlete would have half of every double devoted to easy volume and a triathlete has two other sports to juggle.


Remember, I'm training for the boston marathon at the moment, with the goal of lowering my marathon time. I'm additionally training for the ironman which is later in the year. I'm scheming up ways to get the most bang for my training buck. I'm not a traditional high mileage guy, but from the limited experimenting I've recently done with running 5 times per week instead of 3, I am noticing improvements. I'm sensing the concencus it to keep one workout light if I want to double up.


Yes...I'd go with keeping one workout light.

BTW...what does your coach say??? :roll: :roll:
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Postby Jwolf » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:57 pm

Additional easy miles are not junk miles unless they cut into the effectiveness of your other workouts.

But Jo-Jo makes a good point about your coach's opinion-- I wouldn't be trying to add any mileage or running days behind his back in addition to all of your IM workouts, unless you want to do this on your own.
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Postby Madame Bourette » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:02 pm

Jo-Jo wrote:BTW...what does your coach say??? :roll: :roll:


Right, that's a call that should be made by your coach.
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Postby dwayne_runs_far » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:02 pm

eljeffe wrote:I should have specified I'm not really looking to add junk miles, but rather purposeful workouts. Time constraints are becoming an issue. Looking for more takes on the pros and cons of say a morning hill run, evening speed session scenario.


I don't know of any pros of doing two heavy work outs in day, but the cons are multiple: higher risk of injury, poorer quality of the second session.

If you look at the typical high volume plan that includes doubles you'll see there is only one hard workout per day.

When I do doubles, it comes in two forms. During the week, I will do an easy run in the morning (3-5 miles) along with some upper body strength work, then a track session in the evening -- this is mainly to accommodate my scheduling issues.

The other option is an easy recovery run of 40-80 minutes in the evening after doing a 25-35 miler in the early morning.

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Postby Nicholas » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:10 pm

Never done doubles, even at over 100K a week. I was able to get there with 6 runs. Remember, that the benefit of your workout happens while you rest and your body recovers form your previous workout(s) stronger than before. I would not personally do two hard sessions in one day as you may just ending up breaking the body down with inadequate recovery.
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Postby turd ferguson » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:17 pm

My best marathon training cycle included doubles once a week - 10 miles run to work in the morning, 10 to run home at night. It arose more out of scheduling necessity than anything, but the gains in fitness were remarkable. I focused on the evening workout as the key workout, race pace.
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Postby ROW » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:47 pm

My same question, though this is going to happen with my summer base building, though in my opinion it will help with double days. Your body might get used to recovering quicker?

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Postby Pat Menzies » Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:09 pm

That is exactly what happens. Your body realizes it has another run coming up and gets to work preparing for that.
The commonly stated saying that "the body rebuilds while resting" is true but after a basic routine is established you aren't exactly crippling yourself like a weightlifter.
If you are in shape to do long runs and speed without undue muscle soreness then much of your other mileage isn't actually going to be anything that tears your leg muscles apart.
Much of the improvement in running is not a result of muscular repair which seems to be mentioned often.
You can actually get to the point where muscle soreness isn't really a factor in your training frequency.

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Postby Jo-Jo » Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:14 pm

Blanken wrote:My same question, though this is going to happen with my summer base building, though in my opinion it will help with double days. Your body might get used to recovering quicker?


I think double runs for base building is a bit different than fitting in two hard workouts in one day.

When I was training for both marathons my coach did have me do a few double runs on long run days.

For example: one hour 45 minutes...or two hours in the morning...and then late afternoon...30 minutes.
The strategy: get me used to going back out and running on "tired" legs.
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Postby eljeffe » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:08 pm

MichaelMc wrote:You say that extra running seems to help? Weird. :wink:


Training for the Ironman involves extra EVERYTHING, not just running. It doesn't necessarily make you faster at running, but it makes you faster at running when you're 7 hours into a race.

I can't really add in a 6th running day per week. I'm already training 6 days a week as it is. Most days I have 2-3 workouts. I've done hard cycling/hard run days, but never run/run.

I'm just doing a little research to see if there's anything I should be looking at adding into my program. I often bring things to my coach's attention if I think it will help. Feedback is important, and just because I have a coach now is no excuse to stop using my brain. It's then up to him to make it work or tell me why it won't. If I want to run 2 times a day, it's essentially up to me. I'm doing a run/swim/run day today because I postponed last night's run to this morning so I could fit life in. He doesn't really like when this happens, but understands that Ironman training s very time consuming and sometimes we have to be more flexible. I was wondering what would happen if I was working 2 run days in more often because I think I can take it. :twisted:

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Postby Jo-Jo » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:12 pm

Still asking..I'm curious..what does your coach say???

I know I'm being a "nudge" but why have a coach if you're not taking his advice...just wondering :roll: :roll:

I'm sure you have a brain. Well...I like to think that Bostie has a Human with a brain :wink: :wink:

As you know, my friend Mike Neill is my running coach. He's an IM Pro. Mike's coach said a couple years ago when someone asked Randy what it was like having a coach...

Randy said: "It's really easy...you do what the coach asks"

These days Randy is asking Mike to do stuff that he doesn't really want to do..Mike is dealing with a knee problem and just five weeks out from an A race Randy is telling him to rest. What's Mike doing:..taking his coach's advice.

So again...I ask...what is your coach saying???
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Postby eljeffe » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:29 pm

I haven't asked about it yet. I like to have some knowledge before I bring things up. Not listening to him? In 6 weeks I haven't missed a workout. I'm listening pretty intently I'd say...

I'm not the type of person to get all my info from the same source.

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Postby Jo-Jo » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:36 pm

eljeffe wrote:I haven't asked about it yet. I like to have some knowledge before I bring things up. Not listening to him? In 6 weeks I haven't missed a workout. I'm listening pretty intently I'd say...

I'm not the type of person to get all my info from the same source.


Fair enough...
BTW..I'm not trying to put you on the spot...just reminding you that you hire a coach for a reason :roll: :wink:

I still think you should give Bostie an extra little treat from me...it's just a thought :D :D :wink:

I'm so looking forward to meeting you in Van in May...I kinda wish I could meet Bostie too...from what I've seen...he's the best :D :D
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