What limits 5k/10k speed?

An environment where you can be open & frank about your quest for speed

User avatar
jonovision_man
Bill Crothers
Posts: 2336
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:42 pm
Location: Whitby, ON

Re: What limits 5k/10k speed?

Postby jonovision_man » Tue May 05, 2009 12:55 pm

La wrote:
jonovision_man wrote:
La wrote:
jonovision_man wrote:But for longer stuff I'm not as convinced... Nancy Clark's book has a graph that shows muscle glycogen after a hard work-out and how well it's replenished on a 2/3 carb diet vs how poorly on a protein/fat diet. (I don't have it in front of me, can post more details when I get home). It takes literally days longer on a lower-carb diet vs a higher-carb one, if you're going to go long then that's something you have to consider.

But your question was about 5/10K races, not going longer.


OK I was confused with mytrilife's response, he seemed to be saying you never want to carb load...

jono

I think he was saying that, but perhaps the term "carb-load" is misunderstood and mis-used. If you eat the appropriate amount of carbs on a daily/weekly basis, and re-fuel properly after workouts, then you likely won't have to make a deliberate choice to eat extra carbs in the week leading up to a race. The proper balance at all times will usually yield better results than drastically increasing one macro-nutrient for a short amount of time.


Got it, sounds right.

jono
Visit my blog!

"If you want to be functional at 80, you better damn well pay attention at 40" -- Lew Hollander

User avatar
Wu wei
Bruce Kidd
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:52 pm
Location: Sherwood Park

Re: What limits 5k/10k speed?

Postby Wu wei » Tue May 05, 2009 1:02 pm

La wrote:I think he was saying that, but perhaps the term "carb-load" is misunderstood and mis-used. If you eat the appropriate amount of carbs on a daily/weekly basis, and re-fuel properly after workouts, then you likely won't have to make a deliberate choice to eat extra carbs in the week leading up to a race. The proper balance at all times will usually yield better results than drastically increasing one macro-nutrient for a short amount of time.


Good stuff. Rarely is carb-loading needed, and in most case is detrimental to the athlete's performance. Having a diabetic coach made me aware of the insulin/hormone connection... fascinating stuff.

I do eat A LOT of carbs... but I'm an ectomorph and find I have to be very careful to get enough protein or I start to lose my muscle... then my wife starts calling me skinny. :lol:
“It is not he who reviles or strikes you who insults you, but your opinion that these things are insulting.”
Epictetus

10not42
Percy Williams
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:29 pm
Location: Calgary

Postby 10not42 » Tue May 05, 2009 2:33 pm

mytrilife - thanks for posting that insulin/tapering article. I'm a Type 1 Diabetic (bike and run but not a triathlete), and have seen similar high blood sugars during taper and before races, but I hadn't fully figured it out yet, so that helps me understand it better.

As was pointed out, since the OP was about 5k/10k distances, carb depletion during the race isn't really a factor.

User avatar
La
Kevin Sullivan
Posts: 47990
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:11 pm
Location: Lesleyville!

Postby La » Tue May 05, 2009 2:34 pm

So, back to your original question, nutrition/fueling is likely not a factor for a race that will take less than an hour to do.

LT and VO2max are your likely contributors to performance at the 5K/10K distance. The good news is that those are both systems that you can train to improve. Some studies suggest that VO2max is largely inherited and can only be improved by 10-15%. That said, it does factor in weight, so you could increase your VO2max by losing fat. LT is also another important metric.
VO2 Max as a Predictor of Performance

In elite athletes, VO2 max is not a good predictor of performance. The winner of a marathon race for example, cannot be predicted from maximal oxygen uptake (15).

Perhaps more significant than VO2 max is the speed at which an athlete can run, bike or swim at VO2 max. Two athletes may have the same level of aerobic power but one may reach their VO2 max at a running speed of 20 km/hr and the other at 22 km/hr.

While a high VO2 max may be a prerequisite for performance in endurance events at the highest level, other markers such as lactate threshold are more predictive of performance (3). Again, the speed at lactate threshold is more significant than the actual value itself.

Think of VO2 max as an athlete’s aerobic potential and the lactate threshold as the marker for how much of that potential they are tapping.

http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/VO2max.html
"Maybe I will be my own inspiration." - UltraMonk (Laura)
"Everywhere is walking distance if you have enough time." - Steven Wright

10not42
Percy Williams
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:29 pm
Location: Calgary

Postby 10not42 » Tue May 05, 2009 2:43 pm

Pat Menzies wrote:Not really. Racing virtually any distance is about all the aspects of fitness, not one factor.

I think you're either overgeneralizing or whatever, but, it is a good point that many people do not spend enough time on each training phase to optimize each energy system, then wonder why their race went wrong. When I talked about VO2 training it was implied that there was a decent endurance base and LT already done.

Also, the other important factor to having a good race - pace yourself for the fitness level you have that day (so many people try to hit a goal time that's out of their league). Nothing wrong with having a "dream goal" but it's for planning your training program, not picking your race pace.

User avatar
Wu wei
Bruce Kidd
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:52 pm
Location: Sherwood Park

Postby Wu wei » Tue May 05, 2009 2:45 pm

10not42 wrote:mytrilife - thanks for posting that insulin/tapering article. I'm a Type 1 Diabetic (bike and run but not a triathlete), and have seen similar high blood sugars during taper and before races, but I hadn't fully figured it out yet, so that helps me understand it better.

As was pointed out, since the OP was about 5k/10k distances, carb depletion during the race isn't really a factor.


Here's a another great one:
http://www.ironguides.net/news/210/93.html
“It is not he who reviles or strikes you who insults you, but your opinion that these things are insulting.”
Epictetus

User avatar
Wu wei
Bruce Kidd
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:52 pm
Location: Sherwood Park

Postby Wu wei » Tue May 05, 2009 2:54 pm

There's a component of my program that I'm not sure many people work on... neuro-muscular efficiency. The ability to hold form under fatigue. I do a lot of treadmill running at zero incline during the winter for this purpose. The workouts are not designed to target VO2 or LTVO2.. but to get the legs moving faster at a lower aerobic load than land.
“It is not he who reviles or strikes you who insults you, but your opinion that these things are insulting.”
Epictetus

Pat Menzies
Bill Crothers
Posts: 1434
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:27 am
Location: Ontario

Postby Pat Menzies » Tue May 05, 2009 3:01 pm

I'm actually not generalizing. If you have the time to train properly you would be able to run a 5 or 10 km the same way an elite does, with appropriately adjusted speed.
This means having the endurance to run a good marathon and speed honed to sprint the last 400.
All those aspects are related and each one will help the other.
You can do tons of LT work and probably make the most gains from that but if you add just a tiny bit of sprinting or real power work it can make a huge difference.
The more complete your range, the better you will be.

User avatar
Jwolf
Kevin Sullivan
Posts: 37476
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:02 pm
Location: Vancouver

Postby Jwolf » Tue May 05, 2009 3:26 pm

mytrilife wrote:There's a component of my program that I'm not sure many people work on... neuro-muscular efficiency. The ability to hold form under fatigue. I do a lot of treadmill running at zero incline during the winter for this purpose. The workouts are not designed to target VO2 or LTVO2.. but to get the legs moving faster at a lower aerobic load than land.


Aren't these essentially strides? About 30 sec to 1 minute at about mile pace with full recovery? Lots of people do those... Or are you talking about a different type of workout?

As for the argument about what is the cause of the fatigue-- I'd say you can't separate the lactate threshold fitness training from that top speed training-- you have to do both (along with the endurance stuff). Without the lactate threshold training it will be harder to sustain the top speeds in the race, but without the short intense stuff it's hard to even get there. I had this issue in my last 5K. I had done lots of lactate threshold and endurance training, but couldn't hit my top speed because I hadn't done the intervals and strides in a long time. So getting in top shape is a matter of putting it all together optimally as Pat said.

User avatar
Wu wei
Bruce Kidd
Posts: 977
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:52 pm
Location: Sherwood Park

Postby Wu wei » Tue May 05, 2009 5:01 pm

Jwolf wrote:
mytrilife wrote:There's a component of my program that I'm not sure many people work on... neuro-muscular efficiency. The ability to hold form under fatigue. I do a lot of treadmill running at zero incline during the winter for this purpose. The workouts are not designed to target VO2 or LTVO2.. but to get the legs moving faster at a lower aerobic load than land.


Aren't these essentially strides? About 30 sec to 1 minute at about mile pace with full recovery? Lots of people do those... Or are you talking about a different type of workout?

As for the argument about what is the cause of the fatigue-- I'd say you can't separate the lactate threshold fitness training from that top speed training-- you have to do both (along with the endurance stuff). Without the lactate threshold training it will be harder to sustain the top speeds in the race, but without the short intense stuff it's hard to even get there. I had this issue in my last 5K. I had done lots of lactate threshold and endurance training, but couldn't hit my top speed because I hadn't done the intervals and strides in a long time. So getting in top shape is a matter of putting it all together optimally as Pat said.


Not just strides... but that's part of it.
“It is not he who reviles or strikes you who insults you, but your opinion that these things are insulting.”
Epictetus

User avatar
SteveF
Bill Crothers
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 7:46 am
Location: Ottawa

Postby SteveF » Sat May 23, 2009 8:00 am

I'm no expert but I have noticed my paces at all efforts became sort of "locked" in after doing the same kind of running over and over - typical RR type plan, easy day, rest day, hill day, LSD, etc. Recently I added some Yasso 800s on a local track, and after only 2 weeks, I noticed an improvement in my ability to hold faster paces and also the ability to recover , ie. my recovery pace was even faster. So I definitely agree that a wider variety of training can only help improve overall ability all distances.

Steve

User avatar
MichaelMc
Bill Crothers
Posts: 1466
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:07 pm
Location: Calgary

Postby MichaelMc » Sat May 23, 2009 10:22 am

We have to think about what weare training for. Elites have different types of goals than most of us, as they are highly specialized on a certain distance, already have the foundation to build on, and are past the point of easy gains. For Elites, training tends to cycle through different stages but spends a LOT of time on trying to become as efficient as possible at one certain pace.

For most recreational runners the issues are different. We don't have as solid a running base, which means that doing the basics will often yield solid (sometimes spectacular) gains. It also means that generalized fitness and a wide variety of paces are good, since we might run a one mile race one week a 10k another and a marathon in a month.

I do think a little education on what workout works what energy system is valuable though, as I often find people doing workouts that are less productive or more likely to cause injury than neccessary. That is where slogging through a technical book like Daniels' Running Formula can be valuable even if you never use one of his plans. If you can't answer "why am I choosing this distance, and this rest period between sets" then your speedwork might not be doing what you hope.

User avatar
Jwolf
Kevin Sullivan
Posts: 37476
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:02 pm
Location: Vancouver

Postby Jwolf » Sat May 23, 2009 10:37 am

MichaelMc wrote:I do think a little education on what workout works what energy system is valuable though, as I often find people doing workouts that are less productive or more likely to cause injury than neccessary. That is where slogging through a technical book like Daniels' Running Formula can be valuable even if you never use one of his plans. If you can't answer "why am I choosing this distance, and this rest period between sets" then your speedwork might not be doing what you hope.


I totally agree with this.

runfbrun
Tom Longboat
Posts: 499
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:16 am

Re:

Postby runfbrun » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:28 pm

MichaelMc wrote:I do think a little education on what workout works what energy system is valuable though, as I often find people doing workouts that are less productive or more likely to cause injury than neccessary. That is where slogging through a technical book like Daniels' Running Formula can be valuable even if you never use one of his plans. If you can't answer "why am I choosing this distance, and this rest period between sets" then your speedwork might not be doing what you hope.


Super old thread - I know. I just thought it was a very interesting one since I, for one, do not put a lot of thought into my training regime. Perhaps at my level, just doing the basics will lead to big gains and I think they have. I have often wondered about how big the gains would be if I knew exactly why I was doing 400m intervals as opposed to 200m or 800m.

Currently, the 'basics' for me include a couple of steady runs, a couple of 'interesting' runs (meaning intervals or tempo) and a LSD. I pick my interval distances and rest periods of the basis of what I think will be challenging, but not impossible. All of this with an eye to increasing my mileage each week.

The one thing I do know for certain is that the 10k is the distance I'd like to focus on. I like the idea of doing longer distances, but I think I will get bored with running that long, and with other sports in my schedule I just dont think it is feasible to commit the amount of time training for a half or a full-marathon takes.


That being said, is there a good resource, apart from the technical book mentioned above that can help me figure out what my speed workouts should be like...and why they should be that way?

User avatar
fingerboy
Bill Crothers
Posts: 1480
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:41 pm
Contact:

Re: What limits 5k/10k speed?

Postby fingerboy » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:08 pm

For a 10k, the best workouts are really 6x1mi with 90s rest. It's not necessarily something you "start" with.
As for why - a race is 6.2mi long. These rests will help you recover a bit to let you go at race pace or a little faster in training to get your body used to that zone.

The best foundation for any running is more mileage, LT training, low body weight, and race specific workouts.
If you're really looking to build the 10k, and starting out, aim to get your long runs longer than 10k so you can build your base for training - say 15-20k, but not much more.
A workout like I mentioned before including a warm-up and cool-down will put you in the range of 14k+ so if you're base is weak, you won't be able to complete it.



Extra:
And to the overall discussion of speed - what's often overlooked, is the ideal race weight (assuming you've got ideal training - focus on that first) - say .5% ratio between height and weight. Height in inches being half your weight in lbs. This is more for the more extreme, but again something to consider. Things like VO2 max etc are based off your weight.

User avatar
Joe Dwarf
Bill Crothers
Posts: 2183
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Saskatoon, SK

What limits 5k/10k speed?

Postby Joe Dwarf » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:38 pm

Really, I should weigh 144 lbs at 6' tall? Weight is not linear with height.

ETA: scary thing is that's still a "healthy" BMI of 19.5. I would look like skeletor, people think I have cancer or something at 24.5.

User avatar
fingerboy
Bill Crothers
Posts: 1480
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:41 pm
Contact:

Re: What limits 5k/10k speed?

Postby fingerboy » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:47 am

Weight isn't linear with height in the general population, but amongst successful runners it is.

If you look at that 2sec/lb/mi rule, than just think about it. (I'm just generalizing but there's some truth to it).


Anyways, I was looking at this article from Amby Burfoot, which discusses body weight to champions and potential
http://www.runnersworld.com/elite-runne ... rs-so-fast

runfbrun
Tom Longboat
Posts: 499
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:16 am

Re: What limits 5k/10k speed?

Postby runfbrun » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:23 am

fingerboy wrote:For a 10k, the best workouts are really 6x1mi with 90s rest. It's not necessarily something you "start" with.
As for why - a race is 6.2mi long. These rests will help you recover a bit to let you go at race pace or a little faster in training to get your body used to that zone.

The best foundation for any running is more mileage, LT training, low body weight, and race specific workouts.
If you're really looking to build the 10k, and starting out, aim to get your long runs longer than 10k so you can build your base for training - say 15-20k, but not much more.
A workout like I mentioned before including a warm-up and cool-down will put you in the range of 14k+ so if you're base is weak, you won't be able to complete it.



Extra:
And to the overall discussion of speed - what's often overlooked, is the ideal race weight (assuming you've got ideal training - focus on that first) - say .5% ratio between height and weight. Height in inches being half your weight in lbs. This is more for the more extreme, but again something to consider. Things like VO2 max etc are based off your weight.


So,basically the best work-outs are simulating the race conditions for your body or running as if you were running the race without actually running the race. Perhaps, Im over-simplifying, but I understand what you mean. Would you say these work-outs should form a part of your weekly routine? Or should these be done once every 2-3 weeks after you have got in 4-5 session of LT training?

My base is ok for a 10k I'd say (my farthest long run so far has been 13k). I wanted to push that up to 14k before my race, but as I continue my training after the race, I don't see there being a problem pushing that to 15k.

Dstew
Bill Crothers
Posts: 3421
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:41 pm

Re: What limits 5k/10k speed?

Postby Dstew » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:29 am

runfbrun wrote:
fingerboy wrote:For a 10k, the best workouts are really 6x1mi with 90s rest. It's not necessarily something you "start" with.
As for why - a race is 6.2mi long. These rests will help you recover a bit to let you go at race pace or a little faster in training to get your body used to that zone.

The best foundation for any running is more mileage, LT training, low body weight, and race specific workouts.
If you're really looking to build the 10k, and starting out, aim to get your long runs longer than 10k so you can build your base for training - say 15-20k, but not much more.
A workout like I mentioned before including a warm-up and cool-down will put you in the range of 14k+ so if you're base is weak, you won't be able to complete it.



Extra:
And to the overall discussion of speed - what's often overlooked, is the ideal race weight (assuming you've got ideal training - focus on that first) - say .5% ratio between height and weight. Height in inches being half your weight in lbs. This is more for the more extreme, but again something to consider. Things like VO2 max etc are based off your weight.


So,basically the best work-outs are simulating the race conditions for your body or running as if you were running the race without actually running the race. Perhaps, Im over-simplifying, but I understand what you mean. Would you say these work-outs should form a part of your weekly routine? Or should these be done once every 2-3 weeks after you have got in 4-5 session of LT training?

My base is ok for a 10k I'd say (my farthest long run so far has been 13k). I wanted to push that up to 14k before my race, but as I continue my training after the race, I don't see there being a problem pushing that to 15k.



When I broke the 20 minute barrier for a 5 K race, one training method that helped was doing 5 X 1 k repeats at faster than 4:00 per kilometer with 60 seconds of rest between repeats. Having said that, I am not sure a great deal of the benefit was psychological and that consistent running with some strength work and cross training deserved more of the credit. I would do that run every couple of weeks because you do not want to over do speed work with the inherent risks of that plus you want to make sure your body is challenged and adapts. The danger is doing that too often might be that you become very good at running one mile intervals but not be able to put an entire race together.

Everyone adapts to different work outs and in different ways so despite the promise of magic bullets, for the average runner it is trial and error.

User avatar
ian
Jerome Drayton
Posts: 5973
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:44 pm

Re: What limits 5k/10k speed?

Postby ian » Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:31 pm

Joe Dwarf wrote:Really, I should weigh 144 lbs at 6' tall? Weight is not linear with height.

Engineering 101: every nonlinear relationship looks linear over a narrow range. In this case, for elite runners between about 5 and 6 feet tall, the simplified formula probably gets it right for most of them (e.g., Rob Watson is 6'3" and races at 150 pounds). The formula has no bearing elsewhere, be it for non-elite runners like us or for those outside the narrow range (e.g., a newborn 20 inches long should weigh 40 pounds).

User avatar
jamix
Bill Crothers
Posts: 1811
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:18 pm

Re: What limits 5k/10k speed?

Postby jamix » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:20 pm

Lots of feedback here; I noticed the conversation has moved past the OP, but just to add my two cents......

We can talk about "pace at LT" or VO2, efficiency etc BUT.......personally I'd just say "oxygen" based purely on the anecdotal experience of having to fight for air. When I start crossing over that critical threshold, its usually my breathing that becomes forceful and desperate. Things like muscle fatigue / burning can be present too, but its usually irrelevent compared to the former.
2013 GOALS:

- Compete in the "Early Bird Sprint Triathlon" in May
- Run a 5km pb during the "Bushtukah Canada Day Road Race"
- Complete an Olympic distance triathlon
- Cycle > 33 km / hr during the cycle portion of a Sprint Triathlon.
- Stay healthy and happy

Races

April 28th: Manotick 10km (40:16)
May 18th: Ottawa Early Bird Sprint Triathlon (DNF)
June 8th: Riverkeeper SuperSprint (2nd overall)
July 1st: Bushtukah Canada Day 5km (18:37)

User avatar
Jwolf
Kevin Sullivan
Posts: 37476
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:02 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: What limits 5k/10k speed?

Postby Jwolf » Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:13 am

jamix wrote:Lots of feedback here; I noticed the conversation has moved past the OP, but just to add my two cents......

We can talk about "pace at LT" or VO2, efficiency etc BUT.......personally I'd just say "oxygen" based purely on the anecdotal experience of having to fight for air. When I start crossing over that critical threshold, its usually my breathing that becomes forceful and desperate. Things like muscle fatigue / burning can be present too, but its usually irrelevent compared to the former.


That "fighting for air" is the symptom of your body reaching the limits, not the cause. Your breathing rate is directly linked to what fuel your muscles are using, so you can't separate the two. You actually breathe harder (for several reasons) when you move to anaerobic metabolism, or very high intensity running. So it's not really correct to say that you're limited by oxygen and breathing. There is always lots of oxygen. What's limiting is your body's ability to use the fuel and oxygen.
Support me in my fundraising for the Boston Marathon, Boston Public Library team:
https://www.crowdrise.com/o/en/campaign ... iferwolf11

User avatar
MichaelMc
Bill Crothers
Posts: 1466
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:07 pm
Location: Calgary

Re: What limits 5k/10k speed?

Postby MichaelMc » Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:35 am

Agree with Jennifer: lack of available oxygen is rarely an issue for sub-Elite athletes.

In highly trained Elite athletes it becomes a limiting factor for many. There is still plenty of oxygen in the lungs, mind you, it just doesn't make it around the body. The classic "gasping for air" we all feel isn't lack of oxygen, we're not fit enough for that to be our problem!

User avatar
jamix
Bill Crothers
Posts: 1811
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:18 pm

Re: What limits 5k/10k speed?

Postby jamix » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:37 pm

"Lack of oxygen" is a limiting factor for Elites and non-Elites and even for "non-highly trained / non-Elites" runners alike! VO2max peaks relatively early in the progression of a developing athletes (and actually doesn't increase that much at all in some people). Personally I feel like I've hit that bar years ago.
2013 GOALS:

- Compete in the "Early Bird Sprint Triathlon" in May
- Run a 5km pb during the "Bushtukah Canada Day Road Race"
- Complete an Olympic distance triathlon
- Cycle > 33 km / hr during the cycle portion of a Sprint Triathlon.
- Stay healthy and happy

Races

April 28th: Manotick 10km (40:16)
May 18th: Ottawa Early Bird Sprint Triathlon (DNF)
June 8th: Riverkeeper SuperSprint (2nd overall)
July 1st: Bushtukah Canada Day 5km (18:37)

User avatar
MichaelMc
Bill Crothers
Posts: 1466
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:07 pm
Location: Calgary

Re: What limits 5k/10k speed?

Postby MichaelMc » Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:42 pm

jamix wrote:"Lack of oxygen" is a limiting factor for Elites and non-Elites and even for "non-highly trained / non-Elites" runners alike! VO2max peaks relatively early in the progression of a developing athletes (and actually doesn't increase that much at all in some people). Personally I feel like I've hit that bar years ago.


That is a circular argument. You are assuming oxygen is the issue, and it isn't. VO2 max is NOT a good indicator of who will win a race, so it isn't "the limiting factor". Next, what VO2 max measures is how much oxygen you are able to USE, not how much you are able to get into your system. Availability is not the issue, hence oxygen is not the limit.


Return to “The Speed Zone”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests