speed methods discussion (split from favourite track workouts)

[ultraslacker]

I would again like to bring up the concept of racing all out. We discussed this in a thread about enduring pain/discomfort and how the body learns how to cope with it.
If you jump to longer races and skip the short painful stuff you tend to learn how to race conservatively and rarely if ever take chances and go really hard.
Many people on that thread stated how they couldn't recall too many races where they gave their all. You do need to do a couple of short races to find out what that is like. In doing that you will surprise yourself and realize that many of your training paces should actually be a bit faster. It is pretty easy to NOT do short test races and dodge the hard work you probably could do by keeping yourself in the dark as to your true potential.
That description fits a significant number of people.

I was thinking about this on my walk just now... and I think that giving your all means something different for a short distance than it does for a long distance. When I did Powderface, it was the hardest thing I'd ever done in my life (still is). I left EVERYTHING on the course, but in a very different way than you mean when you talk about giving your all in a shorter race. It's a different kind of hurt, but it still teaches a lot of the same lessons, doesn't it?

[Jwolf]

I would again like to bring up the concept of racing all out. We discussed this in a thread about enduring pain/discomfort and how the body learns how to cope with it.
If you jump to longer races and skip the short painful stuff you tend to learn how to race conservatively and rarely if ever take chances and go really hard.
Many people on that thread stated how they couldn't recall too many races where they gave their all. You do need to do a couple of short races to find out what that is like. In doing that you will surprise yourself and realize that many of your training paces should actually be a bit faster. It is pretty easy to NOT do short test races and dodge the hard work you probably could do by keeping yourself in the dark as to your true potential.
That description fits a significant number of people.

I was thinking about this on my walk just now... and I think that giving your all means something different for a short distance than it does for a long distance. When I did Powderface, it was the hardest thing I'd ever done in my life (still is). I left EVERYTHING on the course, but in a very different way than you mean when you talk about giving your all in a shorter race. It's a different kind of hurt, but it still teaches a lot of the same lessons, doesn't it?

The longer endurance races that you do definitely challenge your mental and physical reserves. But what you don't get is an idea of your baseline speed, which can really only come from short races.

[bruyere]

I would again like to bring up the concept of racing all out. We discussed this in a thread about enduring pain/discomfort and how the body learns how to cope with it.
If you jump to longer races and skip the short painful stuff you tend to learn how to race conservatively and rarely if ever take chances and go really hard. Many people on that thread stated how they couldn't recall too many races where they gave their all. You do need to do a couple of short races to find out what that is like. In doing that you will surprise yourself and realize that many of your training paces should actually be a bit faster. It is pretty easy to NOT do short test races and dodge the hard work you probably could do by keeping yourself in the dark as to your true potential. That description fits a significant number of people.

OMG, so true, for me.
I'm currently in the process of having that drilled out of my hard head. It's not an easy process for anyone involved!!
(And I almost can't believe I just publicly admitted this!)

[Jwolf]

I would again like to bring up the concept of racing all out. We discussed this in a thread about enduring pain/discomfort and how the body learns how to cope with it.
If you jump to longer races and skip the short painful stuff you tend to learn how to race conservatively and rarely if ever take chances and go really hard. Many people on that thread stated how they couldn't recall too many races where they gave their all. You do need to do a couple of short races to find out what that is like. In doing that you will surprise yourself and realize that many of your training paces should actually be a bit faster. It is pretty easy to NOT do short test races and dodge the hard work you probably could do by keeping yourself in the dark as to your true potential. That description fits a significant number of people.

OMG, so true, for me.
I'm currently in the process of having that drilled out of my hard head. It's not an easy process for anyone involved!!
(And I almost can't believe I just publicly admitted this!)

Only because you didn't listen to so many people who tried to tell you before!

[MichaelMc]

I would again like to bring up the concept of racing all out. We discussed this in a thread about enduring pain/discomfort and how the body learns how to cope with it.
If you jump to longer races and skip the short painful stuff you tend to learn how to race conservatively and rarely if ever take chances and go really hard.
Many people on that thread stated how they couldn't recall too many races where they gave their all. You do need to do a couple of short races to find out what that is like. In doing that you will surprise yourself and realize that many of your training paces should actually be a bit faster. It is pretty easy to NOT do short test races and dodge the hard work you probably could do by keeping yourself in the dark as to your true potential.
That description fits a significant number of people.

Excellent point.

As others have posted in follow up comments, it is easy to get lulled into thinking long distance racing shows how you can suffer but shorter distances are a different type of pain. Once you get a feeling what you've got in you for full speed it keeps you much more honest in speedwork.

I had a heck of a time convincing my buddies to race a one mile race this year because we're all distance runners. As it turned out it was a total blast, and we know we can go harder this year! As you point out Pat, the shorter races are really a better indicator of your cardio fitness (thus proper Rep/Interval pace).

[Irongirl]

I would again like to bring up the concept of racing all out. We discussed this in a thread about enduring pain/discomfort and how the body learns how to cope with it.
If you jump to longer races and skip the short painful stuff you tend to learn how to race conservatively and rarely if ever take chances and go really hard.
Many people on that thread stated how they couldn't recall too many races where they gave their all. You do need to do a couple of short races to find out what that is like. In doing that you will surprise yourself and realize that many of your training paces should actually be a bit faster. It is pretty easy to NOT do short test races and dodge the hard work you probably could do by keeping yourself in the dark as to your true potential.
That description fits a significant number of people.

Excellent point.

As others have posted in follow up comments, it is easy to get lulled into thinking long distance racing shows how you can suffer but shorter distances are a different type of pain. Once you get a feeling what you've got in you for full speed it keeps you much more honest in speedwork.

I had a heck of a time convincing my buddies to race a one mile race this year because we're all distance runners. As it turned out it was a total blast, and we know we can go harder this year! As you point out Pat, the shorter races are really a better indicator of your cardio fitness (thus proper Rep/Interval pace).

I'm going to finally chime in here.

I've noticed this "lack of going all out" quite often when I do speed work with different groups. I think as recreational runners, a lot of us just don't know what "racing all out" really means.

I'm not one of those though. As a former competitive swimmer, I've done enough 30 seconds to 5 minute races to know what "dry-heaving/puking" after "going all out" really feels like.

If I'm doing a speed workout or a hill workout, at one time or another that workout, I will be double over almost puking. Now, that's not to say that you need to puke to be considered going all out, but, I'm often surprised at the way people look after a speed session interval - i.e. able to hold a conversation without a problem within a couple of seconds of finishing.

Anyway - all this to say that short races scare me.

[Robbie-T]

"Not to get too deep here, but the most valuable thing I can think of is to be grateful for suffering. That is a sublime feeling, and completely inexplicable and illogical, but no one doesn't suffer. So the degree to which you can be aware of your own humanity is the degree to which you can accept, with open eyes, your suffering. To be grateful for your suffering is to be grateful for your humanity, because what else are you going to do - say, "No Thanks"? It's there. "Smile and accept", said Mother Teresa. And she was talking to people who had it rough."

I got this from Mike Neill's blog it sums up the acceptance of suffering for me. He got the quote from a Rolling Stone interview with T.V. personality Stephen Colbert.

[QuickChick]

Wow, Robbie, you wise old Papa. That WAS pretty deep!! I agree that suffering, as in pushing yourself, is a good mental exercise. It makes you much, much stronger in the long run. It's much easier to push yourself, IMO, in the short races. I agree with Pat that pushing in the short races also gives you more confidence to race longer races hard.

My plan so far once I can start running again is to focus more on the shorter stuff, and get faster. It is a WAY different state of mind when you're racing a 5K all out than a marathon, or even a half. I definitely believe that it's harder to race a short race than to just finish a longer one. Definitely. I can't say, though, whether it's easier to race a long race than a short one. I only just managed to race a half marathon this spring where I felt like I was racing the whole time (ie it felt hard from 3km on- usually I was always pretty comfy for the first 10K). It felt super hard, but harder than the 5K I did in June? I don't know. Hard in a different way. A long term goal of mine, like years down the road, is to race a whole marathon. Currently my marathon pace strategy is to feel fantastic for the first half and good till 30K. I'd love to be at the point where my marathon pace isn't that wildly different from my half marathon pace- for instance I'd love to run, say a 1:35 half and a 3:20 full. That would be awesome- waaaaay down the road.

[Jo-Jo]

Wow, Robbie, you wise old Papa. That WAS pretty deep!! I agree that suffering, as in pushing yourself, is a good mental exercise. It makes you much, much stronger in the long run. It's much easier to push yourself, IMO, in the short races. I agree with Pat that pushing in the short races also gives you more confidence to race longer races hard.

Just to add a bit to what Robbie-T quoted. Mike went on to say in his blog that a couple days before a race he starts to think about the suffering that is to come...and to start accepting it. He ends that blog post by saying..."there is magic in that"

I've always said I hated 5km races but I'm beginning to see the merit that may lie in them helping me get better at the longer distances.

[richie-rich]

I would again like to bring up the concept of racing all out. We discussed this in a thread about enduring pain/discomfort and how the body learns how to cope with it.
If you jump to longer races and skip the short painful stuff you tend to learn how to race conservatively and rarely if ever take chances and go really hard.
Many people on that thread stated how they couldn't recall too many races where they gave their all. You do need to do a couple of short races to find out what that is like. In doing that you will surprise yourself and realize that many of your training paces should actually be a bit faster. It is pretty easy to NOT do short test races and dodge the hard work you probably could do by keeping yourself in the dark as to your true potential.
That description fits a significant number of people.

i agree. intervals hurt (well the last few anyway). i've been doing more speedwork and my 10k and half times have come down. 5k - that's a different story but still working on it. because of this i've bumped up my tempo pace and my LSD pace.

Can a 10k race be considered a "shorter race"!

i agree, not really a "short" race but my point was that doing speedwork helped with that distance too. doing 800m/1000m intervals got me comfortable running at a quicker pace even over the 10km mark. we'll see if speedowrk will help my 1/2 time tomorrow

[CinC]

. It is a WAY different state of mind when you're racing a 5K all out than a marathon, or even a half. I definitely believe that it's harder to race a short race than to just finish a longer one. Definitely. I can't say, though, whether it's easier to race a long race than a short one.

+1

I agree with you Lisa - all I can say is that while I was nervous standing in line for IMC (with a goal of just to finish), I'd be lying if I said I wasn't feeling nervous at the start of running the 10k in Calgary with a goal of a sub 60. Knowing that you're going 'all out' for a shorter distance is a different beast than going long.

It was interesting when we hosted the pro-triathlete during the Calgary 70.3 (Amelia Pearson - she came in 6th in the race, and is currently ranked 2nd in the ITU World LD Triathlon) - after the race, I asked her what the strategy was for racing the 70.3. It was go all out, as hard as you can, for as long as you can. And she felt good until the last 4k on the run when she felt that she had to 'push herself' and 'dig deep'. So, the question obviously is how do you train yourself to be able to do that for 4+ hrs? I guess that's why she's a pro.

[ultraslacker]

I definitely believe that it's harder to race a short race than to just finish a longer one. Definitely. I can't say, though, whether it's easier to race a long race than a short one. I only just managed to race a half marathon this spring where I felt like I was racing the whole time (ie it felt hard from 3km on- usually I was always pretty comfy for the first 10K). It felt super hard, but harder than the 5K I did in June? I don't know. Hard in a different way.

I guess that's where I don't "get" the idea (promoted mainly by speedy, non-ultra people) that we all should do short, hard races. A long, hard race hurts. A short, hard race hurts. Where is the logical connection then to "short, hard races are better for your running and we should all do them"? I could say that running 50k on a mountain hurts most, so we all should do them if we want to improve our running... but that would get shot down pretty quickly. :P What's the link that I'm missing? Unless my goal is to be competitive in short/medium distances, then why do I *have* to do short, hard races?

[MichaelMc]

I guess that's where I don't "get" the idea (promoted mainly by speedy, non-ultra people) that we all should do short, hard races. A long, hard race hurts. A short, hard race hurts. Where is the logical connection then to "short, hard races are better for your running and we should all do them"? I could say that running 50k on a mountain hurts most, so we all should do them if we want to improve our running... but that would get shot down pretty quickly. What's the link that I'm missing? Unless my goal is to be competitive in short/medium distances, then why do I *have* to do short, hard races?

Maybe I can speak to that, since I've played both ends of it.

I'm not in it for the pain. I'm trying to improve my strength, speed and stamina as much as possible and if I could train and race in a way that worked as well or better and DIDN'T hurt, I'd do it. I put up with, even seek, the pain because it tells me I'm stressing something, and only through stress does your body rebuild itself stronger. Pain isn't the only factor, but it is part of the recipe.

To become a better racer, distance runners have to increase their aerobic capacity so the pace they can sustain during their race is faster. Same physical cost, more speed. Short hard races hurt aerobically: lungs burning, legs on fire etc. In my experience this is in-your-face high level pain for (relatively) short periods of time. If you don't learn your aerobic limits you will never get the most out of your speed. It also helps clean up form and build strength and increase efficiency, which are critical for Ultras in particular

Ultra runners and marathoner will never be great 400m runners, but being BETTER at 400m WILL make them better at their race distance.

[Jwolf]

Holly- I guess the answer is that you don't have to do anything shorter. But if you really want to achieve your marathon potential, it will definitely help.

[Jo-Jo]

Holly- I guess the answer is that you don't have to do anything shorter. But if you really want to achieve your marathon potential, it will definitely help.

That's where I'm coming from.Plus...for myself I find the shorter distances mentally really tough and I want to work on my "mental" in races.

[dgrant]

A long, hard race hurts. A short, hard race hurts. Where is the logical connection then to "short, hard races are better for your running and we should all do them"? I could say that running 50k on a mountain hurts most, so we all should do them if we want to improve our running... but that would get shot down pretty quickly. What's the link that I'm missing? Unless my goal is to be competitive in short/medium distances, then why do I *have* to do short, hard races?

These are two completely different types of "hurt". Hurting in a 5K race is when your lungs and throat feel volcanic, but you have to maintain that pain and ask for more of it because slowing down by 10s/km will blow your whole race goal. Hurting in a 50K race (in my experience anyway) is dealing with blisters or running low on calories or sore joints or emotional fatigue or the fact that you haven't seen another runner in 5 minutes or other things that aren't quite as "athletically related". It's just comparing apples and oranges.

When things hurt in an ultra and you slow down to the minimum pace necessary to just cross the finish line, that's one thing. But if you practice some shorter, harder running you'll develop the psychological habit of experiencing suffering and continuing to do exactly what is causing that suffering.

On the physical side, racing a 5K isn't just a race, it's a workout. The run itself promotes desirable physical adaptations. If you train for and actually run a whole 50K it's a notable athletic achievement, but it's undeniably "bad" for your body.

[turd ferguson]

I guess that's where I don't "get" the idea (promoted mainly by speedy, non-ultra people) that we all should do short, hard races. A long, hard race hurts. A short, hard race hurts. Where is the logical connection then to "short, hard races are better for your running and we should all do them"? I could say that running 50k on a mountain hurts most, so we all should do them if we want to improve our running... but that would get shot down pretty quickly. What's the link that I'm missing? Unless my goal is to be competitive in short/medium distances, then why do I *have* to do short, hard races?

By that reasoning, you shouldn't need to do any hills if you're going to run a race in Manitoba, nor stairs for any race that doesn't have stairs, nor pushups for any race that doesn't require you to stop and do pushups.

The only logical connection I can see is that these are the things that people who have success at longer distances do. I'm more than happy to ask the question "what are the people ahead of me in the pack doing" and then do those things.

[JSmitty]

Holly- I guess the answer is that you don't have to do anything shorter. But if you really want to achieve your marathon potential, it will definitely help.

That's where I'm coming from.Plus...for myself I find the shorter distances mentally really tough and I want to work on my "mental" in races.

This has convinced me!!! I am interested in achieving my marathon potential, or half potential. Shorter races, here I come....now where is my courage!!

[babysteps]

Not being a speedy runner ... I get the idea of short races pushing you into the pain zone. But I have to say that while racing a 5k felt awful for me (dry heaves bad - so I think I was giving it a good effort), I get almost the same feeling by the end of my HM too. Last Sunday on my HM I really didn't think I was going to make it the last 400m to the finish line. I had NOTHING left. My legs were dead, I felt like puking etc. It wasn't really much different than my 5k feeling, except that it took 2hrs before I felt so bad, rather than 25 minutes!

[ultraslacker]

But I didn't say or mean short, hard RUNS. I said short, hard RACES.

I can do speed work in my training and so far in my experience nearly all of my best times were in training runs, not races. I know that SOME people perform best in a race environment... but not all of us do... and some of us don't want to dish out $50-100 just to see where we're at when we can achieve the same end by going for a personal time trial. :)

[turd ferguson]

But I didn't say or mean short, hard RUNS. I said short, hard RACES.

I can do speed work in my training and so far in my experience nearly all of my best times were in training runs, not races. I know that SOME people perform best in a race environment... but not all of us do... and some of us don't want to dish out $50-100 just to see where we're at when we can achieve the same end by going for a personal time trial.

Fair enough - I read your comments as suggesting you didn't see how short hard runs helped you in your races. I don't think it much matters whether you have a bib on your chest or not as long as you do the work.

[Jo-Jo]

But I didn't say or mean short, hard RUNS. I said short, hard RACES.

I can do speed work in my training and so far in my experience nearly all of my best times were in training runs, not races. I know that SOME people perform best in a race environment... but not all of us do... and some of us don't want to dish out $50-100 just to see where we're at when we can achieve the same end by going for a personal time trial.

Fair enough - I read your comments as suggesting you didn't see how short hard runs helped you in your races. I don't think it much matters whether you have a bib on your chest or not as long as you do the work.

Sometimes having a Bib on your chest does help in the pushing harder department...just my opinion.
But I totally hear the cost issue.
The 3 5kms I did this year: $10.00, $30.00 (part of a relay team at a Tri) and Free (thanks to a generous Maniac).

Mind you I have to say that one of the fastest 10km's I ever ran was a time trial I did on my own...it was after my dog bite attack got dismissed in court due to a technicality...and I was fueled by rage

[Doonst]

There's a guy in Toronto putting on short races for free! Funny distances usually though like 8K and 6K.

[ultraslacker]

My 5k, 10k, and 10 mile pbs were all during training runs, and all in 2007... That year I also set marathon and half marathon pbs. The significant thing about 2007 is that that was the year I posted my highest mileage and longest runs... I did virtually no short, fast stuff at all until the end of the year, but increased my speed across all distances.

Of course that doesn't prove anything... But with that being my experience you can see why I have that disconnect with short races. But maybe if I tried more training for and running short races I would change my mind! :)

[Doonst]

Well look at UltraQueenga and the Viking. After lots of ultras, up to 100 milers, they have both had huge gains and successes when coming back to the marathon distance. Huge.