speed methods discussion (split from favourite track workouts)

[Jo-Jo]

My 5k, 10k, and 10 mile pbs were all during training runs, and all in 2007... That year I also set marathon and half marathon pbs. The significant thing about 2007 is that that was the year I posted my highest mileage and longest runs... I did virtually no short, fast stuff at all until the end of the year, but increased my speed across all distances.

Of course that doesn't prove anything... But with that being my experience you can see why I have that disconnect with short races. But maybe if I tried more training for and running short races I would change my mind!

If you don't want to train for shorter races don't do it.

Personally I think shorter distance races may help me. But that's just me.

[Jo-Jo]

Well look at UltraQueenga and the Viking. After lots of ultras, up to 100 milers, they have both had huge gains and successes when coming back to the marathon distance. Huge.

Interesting.
Mind you...I think the notion of looking at the Marathon distance as a "short race" just plain sick...

BTW...I have a friend who just completed the Sahara Desert Race on Friday. Along with one of my co-worker's clients. Tom acted as guide for Ron. Ron is the first blind person from Canada to have completed this grueling test of endurance...250 km. in the desert

[ultraslacker]

I am not saying that I don't want to, necessarily... Just digging for more information so that I can decide where I want to go from here.

[Jo-Jo]

I am not saying that I don't want to, necessarily... Just digging for more information so that I can decide where I want to go from here.

Fair enough.

Mind you...I tend to be someone who does like to keep it simple.
Sometimes in life I find for me it's "paralyisis by analysis"...but that is just me and how I operate...not just in my running life...but other areas too

It's probably one of the reasons that in my running life I don't read a lot of technical stuff, and also a reason why I like having someone else help me with my schedule so I don't overthink stuff. Or maybe I'm just to darn lazy to figure this all about by myself

[QuickChick]

My 5k, 10k, and 10 mile pbs were all during training runs, and all in 2007... That year I also set marathon and half marathon pbs. The significant thing about 2007 is that that was the year I posted my highest mileage and longest runs... I did virtually no short, fast stuff at all until the end of the year, but increased my speed across all distances.

Of course that doesn't prove anything... But with that being my experience you can see why I have that disconnect with short races. But maybe if I tried more training for and running short races I would change my mind!

[/quote]
I am confident that once you're consistently running and logging more mileage, you'll probably get pbs anyway, just by virtue of running more. However, if you want to push yourself to really make yourself fitter and speedier (and it's OK if you don't), you need to step away from that comfort zone and get uncomfortable a lot! Do the hard speedwork, and I do think you should try a couple short races. If anything it'll give you a benchmark of where you are right now fitness-wise, which a long race can't do. Plus you can do them frequently to get frequent indicators of how you're progressing.

And for those of you who can set pbs in training runs, I salute you. For me, something magical happens when I put a chip on my shoe that I just can't ever seem to replicate out on my own!

[ultraslacker]

My 5k, 10k, and 10 mile pbs were all during training runs, and all in 2007... That year I also set marathon and half marathon pbs. The significant thing about 2007 is that that was the year I posted my highest mileage and longest runs... I did virtually no short, fast stuff at all until the end of the year, but increased my speed across all distances.

Of course that doesn't prove anything... But with that being my experience you can see why I have that disconnect with short races. But maybe if I tried more training for and running short races I would change my mind! :)

I am confident that once you're consistently running and logging more mileage, you'll probably get pbs anyway, just by virtue of running more. However, if you want to push yourself to really make yourself fitter and speedier (and it's OK if you don't), you need to step away from that comfort zone and get uncomfortable a lot! Do the hard speedwork, and I do think you should try a couple short races. If anything it'll give you a benchmark of where you are right now fitness-wise, which a long race can't do. Plus you can do them frequently to get frequent indicators of how you're progressing.

And for those of you who can set pbs in training runs, I salute you. For me, something magical happens when I put a chip on my shoe that I just can't ever seem to replicate out on my own!

Again, I can get the benchmark without paying for an organized race.

The actual running can be organized or not.

What I'm *now* wondering (in my ever-lengthy though process about this!) is whether there is value in *training* specifically for short races, or if I'm still just as well to incorporate the speed work into my training for longer races. Something tells me you're all going to say to train for the short races... but again, no one has shown why that's *necessary*.

[ian]

What I'm *now* wondering (in my ever-lengthy though process about this!) is whether there is value in *training* specifically for short races, or if I'm still just as well to incorporate the speed work into my training for longer races. Something tells me you're all going to say to train for the short races... but again, no one has shown why that's *necessary*.

I've never trained for a short race & given your stated goals, neither should you, IMO. Your progress towards a marathon goal will depend on easy mileage more than any other element. Small doses of speedwork can be fun, beneficial, and instructive, but it's only a supplement to mileage, not a replacement.

[ultraslacker]

What I'm *now* wondering (in my ever-lengthy though process about this!) is whether there is value in *training* specifically for short races, or if I'm still just as well to incorporate the speed work into my training for longer races. Something tells me you're all going to say to train for the short races... but again, no one has shown why that's *necessary*.

I've never trained for a short race & given your stated goals, neither should you, IMO. Your progress towards a marathon goal will depend on easy mileage more than any other element. Small doses of speedwork can be fun, beneficial, and instructive, but it's only a supplement to mileage, not a replacement.

I was hoping someone would say that, lol.

I think my plan of attack will be to start incorporating speed work (not yet, but when I'm ready), based on the awesome information I've received here... but still keep my goal races in the halfM to marathon distance for right now.

[Robbie-T]

What I'm *now* wondering (in my ever-lengthy though process about this!) is whether there is value in *training* specifically for short races, or if I'm still just as well to incorporate the speed work into my training for longer races. Something tells me you're all going to say to train for the short races... but again, no one has shown why that's *necessary*.

It depends on your goals, if you just want to PB a marathon, you never need to do speed work, but it will help.

It depends what you want.

[Robbie-T]

It's probably one of the reasons that in my running life I don't read a lot of technical stuff, and also a reason why I like having someone else help me with my schedule so I don't overthink stuff. Or maybe I'm just to darn lazy to figure this all about by myself

I also believe we need to practice to suffer in training, otherwise how do you know how much suffering you can accept when it comes race day.

You run I'll think

[RayMan]

What a great thread! I love all the reflective comments...

For my marathon success (a 3:20 marathon last year) I found I needed to realize that the marathon was always going to be painful and to accept that pain. It has nothing to do with the pain of running a 40 min 10k...it is so bone-numbing gut-wrenchingly painful to finish a marathon at the same pace you began it. I hope to run even faster in my next marathon, and knowing the pain will be there (and welcoming it) makes it a fantastic challenge.

On another note, I do Tempo and Intervals throughout my marathon training, with some caution, as the only injury I sustained since starting to run in 2005 was a pulled hamstring while doing Yasso's on an outdoor track in February.

Thanks for starting (and contributing to) this thread!

[Kristen]

For my marathon success (a 3:20 marathon last year) I found I needed to realize that the marathon was always going to be painful and to accept that pain. It has nothing to do with the pain of running a 40 min 10k...it is so bone-numbing gut-wrenchingly painful to finish a marathon at the same pace you began it. I hope to run even faster in my next marathon, and knowing the pain will be there (and welcoming it) makes it a fantastic challenge.

I'm filing this one away... I don't think I've been there yet but want to remember this when I do get there.

[purdy65]

Injury is always a risk with speedwork. Maybe that's why I'm overcautious with it.

The best for me seems to be strong tempo efforts once a week, and hills or intervals (usually 1mile or 1K)

For some strange reason, these workouts are the ones I dread the most, but generally feel the best after!.

I felt sooo awesome after this mornings strong tempo run.

As I look back at last year's log, I'm literally miles ahead of this time last year. So maybe I still have some more speed left in me to eek out - even at my age!

Lisa

[eljeffe]

I found I needed to realize that the marathon was always going to be painful and to accept that pain. It has nothing to do with the pain of running a 40 min 10k...it is so bone-numbing gut-wrenchingly painful to finish a marathon at the same pace you began it. I hope to run even faster in my next marathon, and knowing the pain will be there (and welcoming it) makes it a fantastic challenge.

Out of the 10 marathons I've ran, 7 were incredibly painful. When I qualified for Boston in 2008, I took over 23 minutes off my PB in doing so and finished feeling like I could keep going strong. I didn't have the usual difficulty going down stairs the next day either. I thought it was a strange one-off, as I'd also always associated marathons with extreme pain.

Then I ran a terrible marathon in Boston and it hurt. Then I ran an even worse marathon in the Ironman and that hurt much more.

But then I ran my 3rd fastest one in training and it didn't hurt at all. My last marathon was my fastest, and also didn't hurt at all. I ran considerably faster at the end than I did at any other point in the race.

So I've concluded, that all things being equal (and assuming I've trained properly for the distance), that execution is pretty much the determining factor in whether or not a marathon is going to hurt. The common denominator in all the painful marathons was going out faster than what I had trained for.

Run too easy and you'll leave time on the table. Run too hard and you'll leave even more time on the table. The million dollar question is how do you run just hard enough? I'm inclined to believe that erring on the side of running too easy will get you closer to that point, but more experimentation is needed (Las Vegas Marathon next month )

[La]

I was definitely hurting (muscular and cardio) in the last 6K of my 1/2M on Sunday. I really believe that the harder, shorter training runs I'd done helped me to get through the end of this race, and allowed me to run the last kilometer at 5:22/km pace.

[Marg]

...For my marathon success (a 3:20 marathon last year) I found I needed to realize that the marathon was always going to be painful and to accept that pain. It has nothing to do with the pain of running a 40 min 10k...it is so bone-numbing gut-wrenchingly painful to finish a marathon at the same pace you began it. I hope to run even faster in my next marathon, and knowing the pain will be there (and welcoming it) makes it a fantastic challenge.

I can't begin to tell you how this inspired me when I read it last night. Thanks Ray.

[ian]

The common denominator in all the painful marathons was going out faster than what I had trained for.

(nodding head in agreement)

Not all marathons have to hurt. Start smart and save the willpower for the last hour.

[Kristen]

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[MichaelMc]

Not all marathons have to hurt. Start smart and save the willpower for the last hour.

Filing this one away, too... much food for thought here.

I definitely struggled in that last hour at QCM...

How do you develop the necessary willpower?

I think willpower is a bit of a habit too. If you are disciplined in training and complete the schedule you have set out for yourself, pushing when you are supposed to and NOT pushing when you shouldn't (but might like to)... you've got a head start. The pain of speedwork and of the long runs when I'm tired prepare me psychologically for the challenge of race day. That and the "I've put SO much work into this, no WAY I'm wimping out now!"

[ultraslacker]

Not all marathons have to hurt. Start smart and save the willpower for the last hour.

Filing this one away, too... much food for thought here.

I definitely struggled in that last hour at QCM...

How do you develop the necessary willpower?

I think willpower is a bit of a habit too. If you are disciplined in training and complete the schedule you have set out for yourself, pushing when you are supposed to and NOT pushing when you shouldn't (but might like to)... you've got a head start. The pain of speedwork and of the long runs when I'm tired prepare me psychologically for the challenge of race day. That and the "I've put SO much work into this, no WAY I'm wimping out now!"

They say willpower is like a muscle, and needs to be exercised.

I'm really bad at that, which is why consistency is one of my major goals right now.

And while I do nearly all of my running alone, I think there is benefit to training with others since you can push each other. :)

[ian]

How do you develop the necessary willpower?

(1) Train enough that your legs don't get as tired in the second half and you won't need as much willpower.

(2) Don't burn through too much mental energy in the first part of the race or during the final hours before.

(3) Find some coping strategies that keep you moving when you're tired. Mine include specific songs that remind me to keep my stride rate high, frequent watch checks to subdivide the final kilometers, and pondering about what kind of food & beer I'll get to have when I'm done.

(4) Learn from every long run and race so that you can distinguish between the early signs of dehydration, overheating, bonking, undertrained legs, low motivation, etc., and then take the appropriate action to minimize the problem.

(5) Accept that some days are bound to be better than others and that you can only do the best you can with what you have on a given day. This means that when you find yourself reaching the "willpower" portion of a race, you come up with a realistic goal of how hard you can push yourself for the remainder, and if that goal happens to be less than what you were hoping for going into the race, so be it.

[Ironboy]

They say willpower is like a muscle, and needs to be exercised.

What if you lack the willpower to exercise your willpower?

That would be me.

[ultraslacker]

They say willpower is like a muscle, and needs to be exercised.

What if you lack the willpower to exercise your willpower?

That would be me.

That's when you find someone to kick you in the butt and make you go. :)

[CinC]

How do you develop the necessary willpower?

(1) Train enough that your legs don't get as tired in the second half and you won't need as much willpower.

(2) Don't burn through too much mental energy in the first part of the race or during the final hours before.

(3) Find some coping strategies that keep you moving when you're tired. Mine include specific songs that remind me to keep my stride rate high, frequent watch checks to subdivide the final kilometers, and pondering about what kind of food & beer I'll get to have when I'm done.

(4) Learn from every long run and race so that you can distinguish between the early signs of dehydration, overheating, bonking, undertrained legs, low motivation, etc., and then take the appropriate action to minimize the problem.

(5) Accept that some days are bound to be better than others and that you can only do the best you can with what you have on a given day. This means that when you find yourself reaching the "willpower" portion of a race, you come up with a realistic goal of how hard you can push yourself for the remainder, and if that goal happens to be less than what you were hoping for going into the race, so be it.

I like that summary Ian.

[eljeffe]

The common denominator in all the painful marathons was going out faster than what I had trained for.

(nodding head in agreement)

Not all marathons have to hurt. Start smart and save the willpower for the last hour.

Easy for you to say, Mr. "I'm going to PB the half marathon and full marathon in the same race".