speed methods discussion (split from favourite track workouts)

[La]

....it's probably why I've become a much more confident runner.

OK...going back in RM history we did discuss what it meant to be a "confident" runner. Just ask Mr. Gore (I do believe).

And, no, of course you can't run on brain power alone, unless you can bounce along on your head. But you have to have 100% mental on to get the most out of that poor, tired, confused body. I don't think I've heard anyone say that you can get your best effort time by smelling the roses in the last 10K. You can coast for the first half and start to focus in the third 10K but it takes mind over matter to push that last 10K to the limit. Further, if you believe that research article, then your brain will try to get you to slow down to protect the body. So, you have to work extra hard mentally to overcome that and keep your body moving at its physical max.

There's a difference between the brain and the mind! The brain doesn't think, it just governs everything automatically, trying to keep all your systems in balance. The mind, on the other hand, is the thing that tells your body "I hurt," or "I can/cannot do this." You can't train your brain, but you can train your mind. Bruyere and Jo-Jo explained it quite well when they talked about going out and doing workouts that they didn't think they could do. Completing that workout trains the mind as much as it trains the body.

[CinC]

....it's probably why I've become a much more confident runner.

OK...going back in RM history we did discuss what it meant to be a "confident" runner. Just ask Mr. Gore (I do believe).

And, no, of course you can't run on brain power alone, unless you can bounce along on your head. But you have to have 100% mental on to get the most out of that poor, tired, confused body. I don't think I've heard anyone say that you can get your best effort time by smelling the roses in the last 10K. You can coast for the first half and start to focus in the third 10K but it takes mind over matter to push that last 10K to the limit. Further, if you believe that research article, then your brain will try to get you to slow down to protect the body. So, you have to work extra hard mentally to overcome that and keep your body moving at its physical max.

There's a difference between the brain and the mind! The brain doesn't think, it just governs everything automatically, trying to keep all your systems in balance. The mind, on the other hand, is the thing that tells your body "I hurt," or "I can/cannot do this." You can't train your brain, but you can train your mind. Bruyere and Jo-Jo explained it quite well when they talked about going out and doing workouts that they didn't think they could do. Completing that workout trains the mind as much as it trains the body.

+1 - definitely agree with La here. A large chunk of my training this part year was that - I'd see the schedule and the first thought was 'no f'ng way'. And then you go and do it, and realize that yes, it was tough and painful, but definitely 'do-able'. Or you have a sh!t workout, feel defeated, and it just drives you that much harder.

I think about my husband Dave. He was so, so disappointed with how his IMC went this year. The disappointment at that race, along with some tough workouts in the 5 weeks leading into PEC and discussing and playing through the mental and pyschological aspects of the marathon, I think, gave him the mental toughness to fight through the pain at PEC to run 3:13 to BQ. I think back now, there was confidence in his physcial ability (with running mulitple 1:30 halves, etc), but the 'harder' part on getting the BQ for him was that mental, knowing that he had to accept the pain and push through. Hence, my last thing yelled out to him as he ran by at the 32k marker was "PAIN BANK!".

[Jo-Jo]

I think about my husband Dave. He was so, so disappointed with how his IMC went this year. The disappointment at that race, along with some tough workouts in the 5 weeks leading into PEC and discussing and playing through the mental and pyschological aspects of the marathon, I think, gave him the mental toughness to fight through the pain at PEC to run 3:13 to BQ. I think back now, there was confidence in his physcial ability (with running mulitple 1:30 halves, etc), but the 'harder' part on getting the BQ for him was that mental, knowing that he had to accept the pain and push through. Hence, my last thing yelled out to him as he ran by at the 32k marker was "PAIN BANK!".

I find your line..."the pain bank wants a big deposit" very inspiring

And when I saw your dh on the PEC course at the 41 km mark it was obvious he was digging deep, focused...and making a deposit. I looked at my watch and knew that he most likely had his BQ

I also love Robbie-T's line..."make the uncomfortable, comfortable"

[Ironboy]

Progression.

Okay, so I tried one of these workouts today.

1) For Running form/ Power /co-ordination the best exercise is "repeats". Short (<90 second) efforts, virtually all-out (still hold good form, must be able to complete full set). The breaks between the set are LONG: you should recover FULLY: up to twice as long break as effort (1.5 is normal). You are teaching your body to run FAST.

Did 10min warmup, ran 1 minute fast (3:40/km), ran 2 minutes easy another minute fast (3:45/km), 2 minutes easy and 1 minute fast (3:27/km) plan was 10 minutes cool down but coming up on 2 minutes I figured I should try one more, which was a bad idea, just going in with that attitude pretty much guaranteed failure. Ended up being 0:41 at 4:20 avg pace.

So the question is. How many intervals do I aim for, and how do I progress. Should I go slower so I can make 4, the increase speed until I can make 4 again. Or do I keep the same speed, say 3:30/km and keep doing three until I feel I can try for a 4th again. And when I'm successful at a forth, do I then increase speed, or try for a fifth?

[Pat Menzies]

When Michael mentioned less than 90 seconds he may have really meant WAY less than 90 seconds. Particularly for someone just experimenting with this type of work.
When you are running for power and form you have to practically think like a sprinter. Very short reps with the best drive and turnover you can manage. FULL recovery. You're not training anything that makes you "tough". You are practicing a skill.
You should be doing something like 10x10 seconds with 3-4 minutes in between.

[MichaelMc]

When Michael mentioned less than 90 seconds he may have really meant WAY less than 90 seconds. Particularly for someone just experimenting with this type of work.
When you are running for power and form you have to practically think like a sprinter. Very short reps with the best drive and turnover you can manage. FULL recovery. You're not training anything that makes you "tough". You are practicing a skill.
You should be doing something like 10x10 seconds with 3-4 minutes in between.

Agreed, 90 seconds is the UPPER limit and recoveries should be complete. As Pat says, this isn't meant as an aerobic workout; it is a skill/power workout.

I like "accelerations" as a first speed workout. They can be from a dead stop or "rolling" as you were doing. Accelerate smoothly to the fastest speed you can hold with good form, and then ease off completely: maybe 20 seconds from start to finish, and then jog for a few minutes before going again. Remember "form, form, form".

When you're ready for full Reps, 45 seconds is plenty long to begin, maybe 5 of them. Increase the number (5 x 45 sec, 6 x 45 sec, 7 x 45 sec, 8 x 45 seconds then maybe 6 x 60 seconds): variety is good. You can juggle the duration and quantity a bit, but remember you'd still get significant benefit if you didn't increase the difficulty each week. If you struggle one week, just run the same workout again. It will pay off in better form and lower effort at all paces.

[Ironboy]

Would this be a track workout or during a run (the only point of which would be to do this workout, so warm up, reps, cool down)?

ETA: Thanks!

[Pat Menzies]

There is nothing magical about a track unless you are running with spikes and can actually benefit from the energy return a good track gives.
You just need a surface smooth enough to get up to speed on.
Do this workout in the middle of a run. It doesn't have to be the only point of that run though. You can work it into a medium length run.

[RayMan]

I think back now, there was confidence in his physcial ability (with running mulitple 1:30 halves, etc), but the 'harder' part on getting the BQ for him was that mental, knowing that he had to accept the pain and push through.

I love reading stuff like this - thanks!

[La]

There is nothing magical about a track unless you are running with spikes and can actually benefit from the energy return a good track gives.
You just need a surface smooth enough to get up to speed on.

Though I agree that there's nothing magical about the track, I would also add that the track provides a closed, measured course, without the possibility of being interrupted by cars, pedestrians, dogs, stop lights, etc.

Last night, I was doing a fartlek run along one of my neighbourhood streets (Swanwick, for those of you who live in the 'hood) and it was tough to keep my pace for the 100m blocks where I was doing pickups because of pedestrian and canine traffic (don't get me started on extendable leashes in the dark ). It wasn't always safe to run the entire time on the road because of cars, so I found myself having to jump back and forth between the sidewalk and the road, depending on "traffic."

[babysteps]

I just reread this thread, and I think it's one of our best ever!

I thought with many heading into heavy training with the spring racing season approaching, it was a good time to bump it. Hope no one minds! I think this thread is a treasure trove of great information.

And...who has registered for the many 5ks they are going to RACE this year?!