LT pace and Perceived Exertion

[ultraslacker]

I mentioned this in the daily thread but wanted to give more detail and get some feedback...

All year I've been basing my training paces on my 10k from last November (56:27). I've hesitated a little about doing that since right after that race I got a stress fracture and had some downtime, but overall as I've tested it out the paces have seemed good/right.

Most of the year has been long, slow running with just a few faster ones thrown in, a bit of LT and a bit of MP here and there. But the LT and MP paces have been fine.

Then this month I did some V02 max workouts, and they felt good.

So today I moved into LT intervals. My goal pace for those (based on the 10k time and mcmillan's paces) is 9:04-9:23 per mile, so I thought I'd do 800's at 4:32-4:42. This is the pace I was doing a few months ago for the same workout. But tonight my first 800 was way too fast (4:15), and yet it didn't feel like I was working very hard. I kept forcing myself to slow down, and I still ended up too fast. So I decided to do the rest of them by perceived exertion... I *think* I know what LT feels like. "Comfortably hard", right? That pace where I'm just below "fast", and which I can maintain for longer periods. By perceived exertion, all 8 of my 800s came out faster than the prescribed pace, and at no point did I feel like I was going too hard, nor did I feel like I was fading in the last couple of laps.

so...
- is my perceived exertion right or wrong?
- should I have slowed down into the prescribed zone?
- or has my LT changed?
- or should I be doing longer intervals at the prescribed pace?
- going forward, should I continue to go by PE or by the prescribed pace?

given that Victoria is only 5.5 weeks away, I don't think there is time to test it out with a race. So... keep doing what I'm doing and don't worry about it? Or...?

[ian]

Based on your descriptions, I think you were in the ballpark with today's workout. With all the training you've racked up this summer, it wouldn't surprise me if your fitness had jumped from last fall, even with the subsequent injury. I'd suggest doing next week's workout for longer intervals; not only is the variety productive but it's a lot harder to get away with overshooting LT pace over a 9 minute interval than 4.5, so you'll find out one way or another if your PE is calibrated.

[ultraslacker]

Based on your descriptions, I think you were in the ballpark with today's workout. With all the training you've racked up this summer, it wouldn't surprise me if your fitness had jumped from last fall, even with the subsequent injury. I'd suggest doing next week's workout for longer intervals; not only is the variety productive but it's a lot harder to get away with overshooting LT pace over a 9 minute interval than 4.5, so you'll find out one way or another if your PE is calibrated.

so do mile intervals? I can definitely try that.

[MichaelMc]

If they are easier than before I would certainly agree you are more fit, I also agree with Ian that longer is better in Threshold runs. The object is to spend the most amount of total time in that "comfortably hard" zone. For that purpose, make sure your breaks between sets are relatively short (not full recoveries) so you can get back to "hard" quickly. Rest should be no more than half the time of the effort, or you can jog a lap of the track (2 for a mile). I like to work people up in length of time in the efforts (10, 12, 15, 20 minutes) over the course of a program: nothing really wrong with shorter ones, just more time getting TO hard", which means a longer workout.

[La]

My coach said it's important to factor in pace, PE and HR when doing those types of workouts. If you do your workout by only paying attention to one of those things, then you risk doing your workout at an intensity level (combo of speed/PE/HR) that is inappropriate.

Personally, I prefer to do them by PE/HR and then see what the corresponding pace is. Some days I'm not able to hold the prescribed pace, whereas other days when I'm feeling better I can go faster.

I agree with Ian that if you were able to do 8x400 and maintain that pace for every rep without slowing down, then it was likely fine. I like his suggestion to try longer intervals to see if you can do the same.

[ultraslacker]

If they are easier than before I would certainly agree you are more fit, I also agree with Ian that longer is better in Threshold runs. The object is to spend the most amount of total time in that "comfortably hard" zone. For that purpose, make sure your breaks between sets are relatively short (not full recoveries) so you can get back to "hard" quickly. Rest should be no more than half the time of the effort, or you can jog a lap of the track (2 for a mile).

I did 400m recoveries for 800m intervals. The 400s ended up being 2:25-2:39, so a little more than half of the time.

2 laps seems like a really long recovery, if we're trying not to recover "too much"... would I be ok to still do 1 lap for mile repeats? I was thinking of starting with 4x1 mile, with 400m recoveries in between (or 600m?).

[ultraslacker]

My coach said it's important to factor in pace, PE and HR when doing those types of workouts. If you do your workout by only paying attention to one of those things, then you risk doing your workout at an intensity level (combo of speed/PE/HR) that is inappropriate.

Personally, I prefer to do them by PE/HR and then see what the corresponding pace is. Some days I'm not able to hold the prescribed pace, whereas other days when I'm feeling better I can go faster.

I don't have an HRM, so I only have PE and pace to go by.

I agree with Ian that if you were able to do 8x400 and maintain that pace for every rep without slowing down, then it was likely fine. I like his suggestion to try longer intervals to see if you can do the same.

It was 8x800, not 8x400 (not correcting you to be picky, but because it's a very different workout! :).

[ian]

2 laps seems like a really long recovery, if we're trying not to recover "too much"... would I be ok to still do 1 lap for mile repeats? I was thinking of starting with 4x1 mile, with 400m recoveries in between (or 600m?).

Agreed. My typical recoveries would be:
- 200m jog for 1K intervals
- 400m jog for 1 mile or 2K intervals
- 1 minute walking for long intervals in a loop away from the track
The recoveries are mainly there to allow you to extend the workout and to get a bit of a mental reset. I find that I feel like I'm back to the LT within the first 200m of the next interval.

[ultraslacker]

awesome, I'll try it next week!

[ultraslacker]

ok, did mile repeats tonight (after a week of no running! )

2 miles warm-up
4x1 mile repeats with 1/4 mile recoveries
1.25 miles cool-down
for 8 miles total

The 4 miles were:
8:59
8:56
8:58
8:54

The last one was definitely tough, and I felt like I was just pushing the "line", but no burning and my breathing was still very good/controlled.

so I think I'm in the right spot...

[Jwolf]

That's more like it for an LT workout.

[ultraslacker]

I think I'm going to try to do the fall classic 10k again this year. Two months from now, and one month after Vic so I think the timing is good! We'll see if I can pb again...

[Jwolf]

I think I'm going to try to do the fall classic 10k again this year. Two months from now, and one month after Vic so I think the timing is good! We'll see if I can pb again...

Sounds like a great idea! I'd like to be there too, although not sure if I'll race.

[ultraslacker]

ok, did mile repeats tonight (after a week of no running! :lol: )

2 miles warm-up
4x1 mile repeats with 1/4 mile recoveries
1.25 miles cool-down
for 8 miles total

The 4 miles were:
8:59
8:56
8:58
8:54

The last one was definitely tough, and I felt like I was just pushing the "line", but no burning and my breathing was still very good/controlled.

so I think I'm in the right spot...

Tonight was technically better:
8:55
8:56
8:55
8:52

but I haven't been feeling 100% this week and I definitely noticed that in the workout... breathing was hard at the end (but only in the last lap) and my quads are still a big fatigued from the weekend (!). Overall it was alright though.