Hill intervals

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Futureisnow
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Hill intervals

Postby Futureisnow » Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:37 pm

My understanding about running theory is not very deep, so I would like to know if I am doing this properly, and understand the approach correctly. It's my first time doing anything specifically for speed before a run (Oct 16).

I can run an 8 minute mile or better on a flat. I'd like to improve my speed and be able to carry it longer, up to to 5K.

What I noticed is that my usual pace is around 150-160 steps per minute.

To improve steps per minute, I set the incline on a treadmill (cold/raining) to 5% and the speed to 6.3 mph or a 9.3 minute mile. I found this allowed me to work at a 180 turnover. I did 400m repeats for about half an hour (totalling 2.5 miles including recovery). My HR zone ranged in the 65-80% zone after 8 minutes perhaps.

Running up hill enforced shorter steps and should increase leg strength and strength endurance. Is this about right?

As well, I want to improve my pushoff to generate more force to lengthen my stride. So I am performing hill bounding. I get that these are more like plyometics in motion, done with focus on pushoff and raising the knee. This should tend to improve strength of the calf and hip flexors. Is this about right?

So when I put them together I end up with a longer stride and faster pace, producing a better time. Is this essentially the goal of strength and speed training?

The only other thing I am doing for speed is running km or mile intervals (depending on how I feel). This is where I would hope to see the improvement.

So in total 3 speed workouts per week, with 3 originally but now 2 weeks prior to the race. Would this be sufficent to make a difference over 5K do you think?

I'll leave about 72 hours of rest/recovery prior the race.

Thanks!

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Re: Hill intervals

Postby SteveF » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:30 am

I won't comment on the science behind it, but hills are to me, the key ingredient in any good plan. I can always feel a difference in my running after a few weeks of hills. I've run them 2 ways. The first was hard up with a recovery jog down - repeat. The second, and what I currently run is hard up, hard down, 1 minute rest. This is done on a hill measuring 550m. The 2nd method is good for trashing your quads and preparing them for a hilly/downhill course.
I would say be careful with too many speed sessions in a week - it's a recipe for injury. Hills should be treated as speed work, so run easy for a day or 2 before your next speed session. I agree with running some km repeats but don't forget to mix in some high rep 400's, say 15-20 reps at 90 % effort with a short rest or jog between, to get used to running fast. I'm pretty sure you will get a lot more advice on this. Good luck!

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Re: Hill intervals

Postby Futureisnow » Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:41 am

SteveF wrote:I won't comment on the science behind it, but hills are to me, the key ingredient in any good plan. I can always feel a difference in my running after a few weeks of hills. I've run them 2 ways. The first was hard up with a recovery jog down - repeat. The second, and what I currently run is hard up, hard down, 1 minute rest. This is done on a hill measuring 550m. The 2nd method is good for trashing your quads and preparing them for a hilly/downhill course.
I would say be careful with too many speed sessions in a week - it's a recipe for injury. Hills should be treated as speed work, so run easy for a day or 2 before your next speed session. I agree with running some km repeats but don't forget to mix in some high rep 400's, say 15-20 reps at 90 % effort with a short rest or jog between, to get used to running fast. I'm pretty sure you will get a lot more advice on this. Good luck!


The downhill was something I was considering. Like you say it is pretty hard on the quads, though is supposed to make them more resistant to possible DOMs. The downside is that it gives you definate DOMs :) Can't do it on a treadmill obviously. I may hold off this time around, as there is no real downhilll at th Scotia 5K - just flat and uphill.

I might be able to do 6-8 400s at 90%. Just don't have that ability or trust in my body to do more without pulling a muscle. Would doing faster strides for like 100-100M at the end of the KM intervals also do the trick?

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Re: Hill intervals

Postby Pat Menzies » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:30 pm

If you want to get the benefits from a hill workout, run up the hill with a full range of motion stride.
Running up with a short stride and then also trying to work in bounding to exaggerate the range of the motion is an inefficient way of getting it done.
I would however mention that I see little point in running hills aggressively unless you are capable of racing at closer to 7:00 minute miles.
Until you are capable of supporting the range of motion that aggressive hill running requires from a cardiovascular standpoint you are largely practicing something that you'll never use in a race situation.
Doing the explosive stuff and hoping that your aerobic capabilities miraculously catch up should be left to the crossfitters. :wink:
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Re: Hill intervals

Postby Ironboy » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:36 pm

Pat Menzies wrote:Doing the explosive stuff and hoping that your aerobic capabilities miraculously catch up should be left to the crossfitters. :wink:

:p

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Re: Hill intervals

Postby Futureisnow » Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:29 pm

Pat Menzies wrote:If you want to get the benefits from a hill workout, run up the hill with a full range of motion stride.
Running up with a short stride and then also trying to work in bounding to exaggerate the range of the motion is an inefficient way of getting it done.
I would however mention that I see little point in running hills aggressively unless you are capable of racing at closer to 7:00 minute miles.
Until you are capable of supporting the range of motion that aggressive hill running requires from a cardiovascular standpoint you are largely practicing something that you'll never use in a race situation.

Doing the explosive stuff and hoping that your aerobic capabilities miraculously catch up should be left to the crossfitters. :wink:


I hear what you are saying. I could go all out up hill, though that is really risky for me, injury wise. I'm not sure how long that would last - maybe 200, 300 metres, 5-6 times. Haven't tried.
You are saying that running up hills at race pace, or 90% perhaps, would have more benefit than what I'm doing, correct? But then you are saying only do this if you can run 7 minute miles, which I cant, and what I"m doing won't work. So where does that leave me?

Also, it's not hoping - aerobic improvement through intervals is well documented. I may not be hitting them hard enough yet, but improvement peaks after several weeks and then levels off, where as steady state running can result in continuing improvement, as long as it is kept up. There just isn't time to work on steady-state and benefit much 2 weeks prior to a race.

Plyometrics have been shown to improve running times. I gather they improve the rebounding reflex which is part of running efficency. Basically it's just something that I can do, as the aerobic improvement is a longer term project.

My main reason I'm doing short strides on hills is to get my pace up, with a better form than on a flat - more so than the CV benefit. Although it's possible to get a the same CV benefit running an interval on a hill at a slower speed than on a flat at a higher speed, and therefore reduce the chance of injury. At least that is the way I understand it.

I realise it is not how I would run in the race, but neither is LSD. I would go all out on the hills in the race. The good thing with the Scotia 5K is that hill is at the end, and medical staff is nearby :) Training movements in isolation and integrating them at performance time or rehersal ( time trials ) - it seems like a sound approach.

It's the only way that I can think of that could help with strength and speed and with a low risk of injury, given my profile and time constraints.

And thanks for your feedback!

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Re: Hill intervals

Postby Robbie-T » Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:46 am

Futureisnow wrote:My main reason I'm doing short strides on hills is to get my pace up, with a better form than on a flat - more so than the CV benefit. Although it's possible to get a the same CV benefit running an interval on a hill at a slower speed than on a flat at a higher speed, and therefore reduce the chance of injury. At least that is the way I understand it.


If you only are concerned with short term gain, then hills will not give you what you want, your form will be lousy on hills, you won't be running fast and your turn over will be slow.

If all you want is short gain, work on turn over, 400m repeats on a flat road.
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Re: Hill intervals

Postby PinkLady » Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:58 am

Robbie-T wrote:[
If all you want is short gain, work on turn over, 400m repeats on a flat road.


+1, this jives with advice I've been given. Best way to get quick results and faster turnover is to add some short strides/pickups at the end of an easy/steady run. Don't need a lot to accomplish this, but it's a good way to teach tired legs to pick up the pace with less risk of injury.

Myself, I've always found hills to trigger injuries quite easily, and that's without hitting them all out. Typically I will do my hill workouts at approx perceived tempo exertion.....so, perhaps 75% of MHR. Even then, I've had to deal with some chronic hip/piriformis issues after more than 6 repeats in a single workout. I got around this in the past training cycle by doing a hilly run in place of hill workouts......so, a 10-12km run with 3-4 big hills worked in there. I found it made for more rest in between the hills and also less overly repetitive motion.

Big goal for me this winter is to do actual strength training in the gym so I *can* get strong enough to do all the hill workouts next training cycle injury free. For myself, hill workouts don't replace 'traditional' strength training at all.
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Re: Hill intervals

Postby Futureisnow » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:11 am

Ok thanks guys, I'll give 400M repeats a shot. There is a school track nearby...

Interesting, the claim for injury prevention was that the heel isn't fully extending down with the short stride,
you are landing and pushing off on your toes/mid-foot more, so form is ideal(ish). Less chance of pulling the calf/hamstring.

The hill bounding is not really running - more like hopping - it is a form of low-speed plyometric speed-strength training. The problem
with weight training is that in terms of endurance, whatever you do will pale in comparison with the weight lifted while actually running.
And if you go heavy, you are growing your short twitch fibres more than your slow twich endurance which don't grow much,
so unless it's a sprint distance there is a trade off. But I was told by a marathon runner that he would do 30 rep sets
of weighted lunges and squats.

In terms of core workouts mentioned in the other thread, I saw a sprinter program that includeds
some upright core work, such as walking opposites touching elbows to the opposite knee, and hanging knee ups
which, are also vertical.

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Re: Hill intervals

Postby Joe Dwarf » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:30 am

Pat Menzies wrote:I would however mention that I see little point in running hills aggressively unless you are capable of racing at closer to 7:00 minute miles.
7 min miles over what distance?

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Re: Hill intervals

Postby dgrant » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:34 am

No offense intended whatsoever, but if your goal is to hold an 8 minute mile pace for three miles, you're at that great stage in the learning curve where pretty much all running will help you improve. I don't know if any specific workout is worth fussing over so particularly. I'd be inclined to focus on a) consistent running and b) a weekly or twice weekly tempo run. I'd think 400m repeats might be planing the wood before you've cut down the tree...

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Re: Hill intervals

Postby SteveF » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:49 am

Hmmm I seem to have missed the part about you doing this 2 weeks before your goal race. :oops: So in light, I would add that hill training should be done early in your program to build strength - not 2 weeks before. With 2 weeks to go, the hay is in the barn.

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Re: Hill intervals

Postby 10not42 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:54 pm

Downhill running might be a good way to improve turnover this close to the race. Not too steep a hill is needed, and that would be a higher injury risk anyway.

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Re: Hill intervals

Postby Futureisnow » Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:01 pm

Next time I will have to do a proper training, no doubt about it!

A 5K can be considered a threshold test run (20-30 minutes) so I think hitting the anaerobic side also has value, regardless of where the line
between aerobic and anaerobic lies.

I basically agree with the last 3 comments although I am also trying to keep the steady-state to to a minimum currently and rely on my existing aerobic base, to avoid injury.
I gather to some extent steady-state running can reduce injuries, however with my body issues I have a hard time going longer than 30 minutes before risk increases.
And it's late in the game to build up the endurance strength side. I am leg injury prone (working on tha seperately).

I have been doing the equiv of tempo runs on the elliptical to avoid the pounding. Gets my HR up in the 70-80% range and uses the legs in a similar way, for 30-40 mins.

The concept was increase pace and strde through intervals (hill was the concept to avoid injury) amd bounding.

It is pretty hopeless I agree, but it is fun to try new things, and I don't think would make me any slower.

Edit: So many training options; so little time. What % would you say for the downill? I do want to avoid very serious DOMS this close to race.

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Hill intervals

Postby Jwolf » Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:08 pm

I still have a hard time understanding how you think that running more than 30 minutes increases injury risk and you'd rather run shorter at faster paces. That tells me that you have been trying to run too hard on the runs longer than 30 minutes.

On one hand you say you want to reduce injury risk, but on the other hand you want to try some new speed workouts and hill sprints- both very high in the injury-risk categories, especially with a low running base.
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Re: Hill intervals

Postby Futureisnow » Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:52 pm

Jwolf wrote:I still have a hard time understanding how you think that running more than 30 minutes increases injury risk and you'd rather run shorter at faster paces. That tells me that you have been trying to run too hard on the runs longer than 30 minutes.

On one hand you say you want to reduce injury risk, but on the other hand you want to try some new speed workouts and hill sprints- both very high in the injury-risk categories, especially with a low running base.


Ironic huh?

Perhaps on the first point. However I do have certain muscular, gait and mechanical issues to contend with, that I'm trying to deal with.
Repatative use injury exists too. Injuries are edemic in the running community even with LSD...
I am sure I could run like lots of 10 minute miles but haven't tried because of concern of injury.

Not hill sprints on the second point. Hill bounding, and hill running at fast steps per minute (180) but not very fast, like 6 miles an hour.
The former is for maybe 20 minutes including breaks, about 100 feet at a time. The latter does get the HR in the 65-80% range, so not killer exertion.

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Re: Hill intervals

Postby dgrant » Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:04 pm

Futureisnow wrote:I have been doing the equiv of tempo runs on the elliptical to avoid the pounding. Gets my HR up in the 70-80% range and uses the legs in a similar way, for 30-40 mins.


For you next training cycle, I'd submit that the elliptical machine really bears no resemblance to running, especially with regard to a tempo run.

Until you're at a point where 60 minute runs are commonplace and >60km/wk is your norm you aren't likely to scratch your 5K potential. The things you're contemplating are immaterial until then. Don't overthink it, just have fun building up your miles. :D

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Re: Hill intervals

Postby Jwolf » Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:15 pm

Futureisnow wrote:Repatative use injury exists too. Injuries are edemic in the running community even with LSD...
I am sure I could run like lots of 10 minute miles but haven't tried because of concern of injury.


Repetitive stress/overuse injuries certainly do exist, and most often come from trying to do too much too soon. With endurance you have to build gradually to allow the ligaments, tendons, small muscles, and other connective tissues time to adapt. Otherwise, you get the standard overuse injuries like tendonitis, plantar fasciitis, shin splits, ITBand issues, etc (all connective tissue or tendon issues). (Large muscles are usually self-limiting by aerobic endurance capacity.) Or, if you try to go too hard for too long it can lead to over-stress.

I'm not sure what you mean by gait and mechanical issues-- how different are those what the average runner has to deal with? I used to say I couldn't run more than 3 x/week because I was "prone to shin splints". But once I changed the way I ran (not trying to go out too hard each time, gradually building, etc) my "tendency" for shin splints went away. I certainly have had to deal with other injuries, but they have all been traced to either trying to do too much too soon or doing too much intensity.

and ETA:

I totally agree with dgrant in the above post (he was posting at the same time I was writing). You have a lot of potential for improvement if you just get out and run more-- have patience and build gradually and replace the elliptical with easy running. Put down the theory books-- just get out there and run.
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Re: Hill intervals

Postby Futureisnow » Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:02 pm

I do hear the LSD message, and am not against it.

However, except that I am involved in tennis competiton 1-2x week, and gymnastic training 2x-week, so it really only leaves max 2 days for running during most of the year.
I can do some easy running like 2 slow miles before gymnastic stuff but that is about it. Tennis is a lot of running, so can perhaps counts for some miles, lol.
So at best I could do maybe see 10 miles a week.

Around the big Toronto races I try to focus more on running though, so I can get 4 sessions/week in.
I think I will forget the spring race, and just focus on the late summer/fall next year, maybe for 10 weeks.
But how much of a base can carry over year to year, without starting from scratch?
That is why I was taking a quick pump up approach, to maximize the limited time before the race.
I know it won't acheive my maximum potential though. It is just something I can do.

The gait/mechanical has to do with leg turned out on right side when running maybe 15 degrees, less flexibility on right side,
pronation on left side, arch collapse on left side, a right leg length difference (right longer .5 "),
oh yeah osgood shlaters on the left side as a teenager ...
I had achilles tendonosis on the left side (treated and subsided) and calf/hamstring strains occuring there more often.
I tend to walk twisted and feel like I'm hopping a bi. So I am trying to address these matters.
In other words, typical average runner I guess!

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Re: Hill intervals

Postby Jwolf » Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:27 pm

Your biomechanical issues don't sound out of the ordinary, no. And as was discussed in the other thread, many therapists/specialists try to blame injuries on imbalances or leg-length discrepancies when really these things are more natural than not.

Certainly if you participate in other sports you'll have to decide how much running you want to do-- this is all for fun, of course. :) I'm not trying to rehammer the LSD message-- of course you can only do as much running as your schedule and desire allows. I just think that you have to stop convincing yourself that duration of running is putting you at more risk for injuries. It's likely not. If you can run hard for 30 minutes you can run easy for 60 minutes (eventually). And then you'll be faster on the days you run hard for 30 minutes. It's not much more complicated than that.
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Re: Hill intervals

Postby Joe Dwarf » Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:38 pm

Sounds like analysis paralysis to me. I'd listen to all the people telling you to skip the fancy stuff, especially so close to your race.

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Re: Hill intervals

Postby Futureisnow » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:40 pm

Not paralysed - have been doing workouts reguarly - just evaluating my approach at the same time.

I hear what you are pretty much all saying, and it is hard to argue with your experience.

I'm going to give some of your ideas a try and see how my body reacts.
Nothing longer than 4 or 5 miles right now, at a slow pace, maybe 11 minute miles 2 times a week.

I like the idea of going my fastest but not enough to run 50km per week, in the big scheme of things.

Maybe 1 short tempo run for 20 minutes for at like a 8:45 pace? I'm expecting m 5K race pace to be about 8:30.

Will I cut out the fancy hill stuff? Probably. I can just incorporate hills into the slow run for variety.

And for speed I can work on the stides for the end of this run. Maybe add some 400 repeats the next time around, after working on a base for many weeks.

I stil may have to bo back to the elliptical or bike if my calf is sore :)

Addendum:

I should add that I believe that I got part my training approach from reading what I consider a fine article
by Lyle Mcdonald who is a phyiologist, an endurance athlete, a diet guru and something of a bodybuilder, in
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/traini ... art-1.html

In it he said:

"And the best way to push up the speed you can generate aerobically over a long period of time (this is a key phrase I’ll come back to) is through either the miles build champions method (if you have time) or some combination of tempo, sweet spot and threshold training (generally more realistic for folks who can’t train full time), topped off with a bit of higher intensity training to maximize those other systems (which, again, aren’t terribly trainable)."

He does add later in part 2 ...
"I’d also note that for total beginners to endurance sports, I would say that extensive endurance/miles build champions methods are pretty much the only thing that should be done initially. Yes, I know, the interval training studies show faster initial gains in fitness comparatively speaking but there are issues that need to be considered. Not the least of which is that the intensities involved are usually beyond what beginners can or will do."

I don't feel like an outright beginner but it is soemthing to consider.
So because of the time remaining, I leaned with going the somewhat more intense route.
Although he does advise against strictly intervals for running purposes.
Unfortunately I can't split myself, try both ways and see which works better for me at the same time!

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Re: Hill intervals

Postby MichaelMc » Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:26 pm

Frankly you are a "total beginner" by the standards of running training. That isn't an insult, we've all BEEN total beginners.

Normally distance running training isn't actually all that complicated, or doesn't have to be anyway. Run a bit more each week, mostly slow with a LITTLE bit of faster running. That will keep most people getting faster for years.

"Cramming" for a race causes injuries far more than it creates improvements, but technically yes, high intensity CAN cause an improvement in a relatively short period of time. It fails the "risk/reward" test for the vast majority of people. So does downhill running btw.

The vast majority of runners running with a low cadence are simply trying to "reach" too far with every stride. This can be too far forward (thus overstriding) or backward (trying to push off too far behind). Neither one is efficient, but too far forward is worse because it often causes a jolting stride. Overstriding is often caused by people trying to get fast by pushing off really hard in an attempt to lengthen their stride. In reality fast runners are fast due to their ability to exert force quickly (at the proper angle), get back into the air and then repeat it. They don't go any higher in the air than they have to to recover their back leg and position it to push again: it is a series of short hard pushes. Plyometrics can help this, but so will simple running, and normal running is far less injury risk overall.

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Re: Hill intervals

Postby Futureisnow » Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:04 pm

Well said :) And thanks for the intresting tibits. I will try to use them.

I ran slowly today (beautiful day in Toronto!) for as long as could. It turned out to be
5 miles (8k), and it took about an hour factoring in a few short breaks for bathroom and drinks, which works out to 12 min miles. It was quite pleasant. Wasn't tired at all - hardly panted compared to usual (relatively) speedy run. Maybe it was too slow but didn't want to push it either first time doing it.

The "bad" leg started feeling a bit achy at 4 miles, and on the verge of cramping at 5, so I stopped. It resolved up after stopping...

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Re: Hill intervals

Postby Jwolf » Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:20 pm

Futureisnow wrote:I ran slowly today (beautiful day in Toronto!) for as long as could. It turned out to be
5 miles (8k), and it took about an hour factoring in a few short breaks for bathroom and drinks, which works out to 12 min miles. It was quite pleasant. Wasn't tired at all - hardly panted compared to usual (relatively) speedy run. Maybe it was too slow but didn't want to push it either first time doing it.


It's ok to start slow-- soon you should be able to do closer to 10K in an hour for an easy run. I'm impressed that you took our advice. :)
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