Cadence

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Pat Menzies
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Re: Cadence

Postby Pat Menzies » Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:03 pm

I was being serious. I'm not sure why this wouldn't be a realistic scenario. When you consider how delicate the average runner describes their feet and legs being in response to mileage increases, speedwork or shoe changes the tiniest subconscious difference in a stride repeated thousands of times has to add up.
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ian
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Re: Cadence

Postby ian » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:14 pm

Jwolf wrote:What I don't get is whether consciously trying to increase cadence at slower speeds will actually carry over to better running at faster speeds- if you're already doing the higher cadence at the faster speeds.

I look at it the other way around: the technique at the faster speeds will usually take care of itself (fitness permitting) and the goal is to carry over these efficiencies down to slower speeds. In this context, I would put 21K and 42K race pace for recreational runners in the "slower speed" category.

Habs4ever wrote:But then how are you supposed to know how many steps you're taking if you have nothing to measure it against or if you're not supposed to count.

I've never heard of the "stamping injury hypothesis" either, but I suppose it's plausible for certain runners. For me, the key isn't to monitor every step of every run, but rather to do sporadic calibrations so that you eventually learn to "feel" what a good cadence is like and you develop a couple of ways to "fix" your cadence in the middle of a run or race without having to count.

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MichaelMc
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Re: Cadence

Postby MichaelMc » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:34 pm

I'm with Ian on the technique thing; one reason for "strides" is to encourage efficiency. One can get away with a lot of unneccessary extra motion when you're going easy without noticing; once you start moving really quickly such extra motion becomes far more noticeable and people tend to clean it up.

Trying to find a quicker cadence and make it "natural" is an effort to increase the efficiency of marathon pace running. At longer distances being slightly more efficient can make all the difference, and it will show up in the final few miles.

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Jwolf
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Cadence

Postby Jwolf » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:34 pm

ian wrote:
Jwolf wrote:What I don't get is whether consciously trying to increase cadence at slower speeds will actually carry over to better running at faster speeds- if you're already doing the higher cadence at the faster speeds.

I look at it the other way around: the technique at the faster speeds will usually take care of itself (fitness permitting) and the goal is to carry over these efficiencies down to slower speeds. In this context, I would put 21K and 42K race pace for recreational runners in the "slower speed" category.

I'm talking about even slower though- even my marathon pace is quite a bit faster than the slow easy pace I normally do (and half pace is much faster). Once I get close to marathon pace my cadence is already higher. So does it help to work on "efficiency" at my slow/easy paces?

The cadence range that Alex Hutchinson talks about in that article seems to match where I am if you scale his slow/fast running range to where mine is.
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Habs4ever
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Re: Cadence

Postby Habs4ever » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:53 pm

ian wrote:
Habs4ever wrote:But then how are you supposed to know how many steps you're taking if you have nothing to measure it against or if you're not supposed to count.

I've never heard of the "stamping injury hypothesis" either, but I suppose it's plausible for certain runners. For me, the key isn't to monitor every step of every run, but rather to do sporadic calibrations so that you eventually learn to "feel" what a good cadence is like and you develop a couple of ways to "fix" your cadence in the middle of a run or race without having to count.

I totally get that it's not practical to measure every step of every run but I need a concrete way to practice and measure the quicker turnover. In the past when I've tried to speed up turnover, I know I've gone too far the other way, almost taking tiny mincing steps. I think for me the metronome will be a helpful tool, and hopefully over time it will become easier to feel the right cadence without tools.
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Running is a conversation with your body. Sometimes you listen and sometimes you tell it to stop whining and do something. - Ian

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ian
Jerome Drayton
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Re: Cadence

Postby ian » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:54 pm

Jwolf wrote:I'm talking about even slower though- even my marathon pace is quite a bit faster than the slow easy pace I normally do (and half pace is much faster). Once I get close to marathon pace my cadence is already higher. So does it help to work on "efficiency" at my slow/easy paces?

That surprises me that you see such a difference between easy pace and marathon pace when, objectively, the two aren't all that far apart for you, especially because the race day pace is enhanced by a taper. Nevertheless, I can come up with three reasons why it might help a little bit to try to bring the higher cadence all the way down to the easiest paces:
(1) Practice: Race day shouldn't be about "flipping a switch" and suddenly doing all the things that didn't get done in training.
(2) Recovery: Higher cadence running is lower impact and will allow you to recover from workouts more quickly. This obviously becomes important during marathon training plans when you have a lot of back-to-back runs and you can't afford to deplete yourself too much with the easy runs.
(3) Injury prevention: Higher cadence running tends to be smoother and more balanced. Certain running injuries are just random bad luck but there are things we can do to lower the odds.

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ian
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Re: Cadence

Postby ian » Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:01 pm

Habs4ever wrote:I totally get that it's not practical to measure every step of every run but I need a concrete way to practice and measure the quicker turnover. In the past when I've tried to speed up turnover, I know I've gone too far the other way, almost taking tiny mincing steps. I think for me the metronome will be a helpful tool, and hopefully over time it will become easier to feel the right cadence without tools.

I wouldn't worry about the "risks" of the metronome for a short-term project, especially if you only use it for part of your runs. In my experience, there are two groups of runners that are most susceptible to having a really low cadence:
(1) Men of above average height who can bounce their way to some long strides at the expense of endurance.
(2) Very slow runners who go anaerobic over any period of continuous running and tend to restrict their cadence to compensate.
You don't fall into either of these groups, therefore I don't expect that this will be anything more than a minor off-season distraction for you.

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Habs4ever
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Re: Cadence

Postby Habs4ever » Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:25 pm

ian wrote: a minor off-season distraction for you.


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Love, like I'm on borrowed time
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Running is a conversation with your body. Sometimes you listen and sometimes you tell it to stop whining and do something. - Ian

Dstew
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Re: Cadence

Postby Dstew » Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:26 pm

ian wrote:
Jwolf wrote:I'm talking about even slower though- even my marathon pace is quite a bit faster than the slow easy pace I normally do (and half pace is much faster). Once I get close to marathon pace my cadence is already higher. So does it help to work on "efficiency" at my slow/easy paces?

That surprises me that you see such a difference between easy pace and marathon pace when, objectively, the two aren't all that far apart for you, especially because the race day pace is enhanced by a taper. Nevertheless, I can come up with three reasons why it might help a little bit to try to bring the higher cadence all the way down to the easiest paces:
(1) Practice: Race day shouldn't be about "flipping a switch" and suddenly doing all the things that didn't get done in training.
(2) Recovery: Higher cadence running is lower impact and will allow you to recover from workouts more quickly. This obviously becomes important during marathon training plans when you have a lot of back-to-back runs and you can't afford to deplete yourself too much with the easy runs.
(3) Injury prevention: Higher cadence running tends to be smoother and more balanced. Certain running injuries are just random bad luck but there are things we can do to lower the odds.



I had been doing a lot of heart rate based running and as a result, lowered my pace and my cadence. Each successive run was causing more and more pain and stiff and it was starting to aggravate literally every old running injury I had suffered. Frustrated, I ran hard up a short hill and things started to feel better. With each run after that I became aware of pace and cadence due to the original post and as if be a miracle, a nice jetted tub, all of the aches and pains have disappeared. One of my first runs back to focusing on cadence and proper form, I commented to my wife it was like I had forgotten how to run. But with minimal practice and old muscle memory, just the other day I had planned on a nice 5 K run and it turned into a pleasant 10 k run.

In other words, I can attest from personal and immediate experience to the truth in points 2 and 3. Philosophically I agree with point 1 and found it to be true for me as well.


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