Lance and the entire TDF are on drugs - discuss

[BJH]

This is just insane! How do people ride this final 21K up le Mont Ventoux??

I believe there is some speculation about just that, upthread.

[runningman]

Alberto Contador would continue as the captain of the new Astana team. "We will meet with Alberto Contador to offer him a contract extension," said Nikolaï Proskurin, the vice-president of the Kazakh cycling federation. "He will be our sole leader for years to come. He will be able to pick out the riders he wants to ride with him. In our mind, the team will be composed of Spanish and Kazakh riders, including Alexandre Vinokourov."
jono

Why does this not leave a warm fuzzy feeling ?.........There's no way if Vino is in the team, even with Contador as defending champ does this team race the TDF next year.

Yeah, it's tough to imagine after just being invited back that they'd revert to a pro-dope team.

jono

FYI, Armstrong and Contador both doped.

Wow, I must have missed the news when it was proven Armstrong doped...but I guess to dominate a sport for so long he must have... just like Gretzky, Michael Jordan etc.

[DeltaTrev]

Alberto Contador would continue as the captain of the new Astana team. "We will meet with Alberto Contador to offer him a contract extension," said Nikolaï Proskurin, the vice-president of the Kazakh cycling federation. "He will be our sole leader for years to come. He will be able to pick out the riders he wants to ride with him. In our mind, the team will be composed of Spanish and Kazakh riders, including Alexandre Vinokourov."
jono

Why does this not leave a warm fuzzy feeling ?.........There's no way if Vino is in the team, even with Contador as defending champ does this team race the TDF next year.

Yeah, it's tough to imagine after just being invited back that they'd revert to a pro-dope team.

jono

FYI, Armstrong and Contador both doped.

....get over it....please

Le Tour for pro riders that have never doped/used peds would have no entries, simple fact.

Jacques Anquetil, the first 5 time winner between 1957, and 1964....famously stated....."you don't win the Tour De France on mineral water alone"

[turd ferguson]

[runningman]

Alberto Contador would continue as the captain of the new Astana team. "We will meet with Alberto Contador to offer him a contract extension," said Nikolaï Proskurin, the vice-president of the Kazakh cycling federation. "He will be our sole leader for years to come. He will be able to pick out the riders he wants to ride with him. In our mind, the team will be composed of Spanish and Kazakh riders, including Alexandre Vinokourov."
jono

Why does this not leave a warm fuzzy feeling ?.........There's no way if Vino is in the team, even with Contador as defending champ does this team race the TDF next year.

Yeah, it's tough to imagine after just being invited back that they'd revert to a pro-dope team.

jono

FYI, Armstrong and Contador both doped.

....get over it....please

Le Tour for pro riders that have never doped/used peds would have no entries, simple fact.

Jacques Anquetil, the first 5 time winner between 1957, and 1964....famously stated....."you don't win the Tour De France on mineral water alone"

Not sure I'd take what a rider from 1957 says as gospel. Can we add Usain Bolt and Michael Phelps to the "must be doping list".
Here is an article to read with an open mind. I am not taking this as gospel but some good points made.

http://recovoxnews.blogspot.com/2009/01 ... clean.html

[DeltaTrev]

Great article, I was just trying to point out that cycling is historically the professional sport (I say "sport" to exclude such things as bodybuilding, wwe, etc) which has a proven track record of doping throughout the ranks, and this goes back way before 1957 right thru to today uniterupted.....love the sport or loathe it is anyones choice, but to point the finger at one athlete as so many people are app to do, without considering that in cycling there is a long history of PED's, is not fair

......and no more "Greg Lemond" says to prove things about Lance.....Greg used PED's, they were called "team vitamin shots" , and the team masseuse used "additives" to the daily rubdown oil

Its time to get racing

[Wu wei]

Ahem.

Your hero is a doper just like the rest. So sorry.

http://velocitynation.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden

8 stage positives in the 1999 TdF. He wasn't drinking kool-aid to win that tour.

[Pat Menzies]

That article really knocks the first one down. When I first I read that it did look pretty convincing.
There are more than a couple of glaring inconsistencies in some Armstrong stories through the years.
My favorite was his epic 4 hour mountain climbing training ride that he repeated twice in his first book but shrinks to a more reasonable one hour in his later book (and the foreword of Bruyneel's new book).
Maybe he will later say he only doped in '99

[MINITEE]

and a few of these for good measure

Can we not just watch & enjoy?

[jonovision_man]

Ahem.

Your hero is a doper just like the rest. So sorry.

http://velocitynation.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden

8 stage positives in the 1999 TdF. He wasn't drinking kool-aid to win that tour.

That's a good article. People forget those tests, they weren't official competition tests but they still happened.

Can we not just watch & enjoy? Rolling Eyes

Sure, sometimes. But then you "watch & enjoy" something like Landis's spectacular comeback, only to find out it was the result of cheating. You watch and enjoy a great young rider like Ricco hammer home a remarkable stage win, then find out he doped.

It's a love-hate relationship with this sport... I love watching it, I hate the hang-over when all the positives flood in.

jono

[turd ferguson]

OKAY, Moderator here, because we have two equally interesting threads going on here, I've made the modly decision to split the threads. Drugs in one thread, TDF in the other.

[DeltaTrev]

OKAY, Moderator here, because we have two equally interesting threads going on here, I've made the modly decision to split the threads. Drugs in one thread, TDF in the other.

Just to clarify this....."Was this a positive decision, or a negative one ?"...........

....and can we get this re moderated in 10 years ?

[seuss]

OKAY, Moderator here, because we have two equally interesting threads going on here, I've made the modly decision to split the threads. Drugs in one thread, TDF in the other.

Just to clarify this....."Was this a positive decision, or a negative one ?"...........

....and can we get this re moderated in 10 years ?

who's going to be there when the B sample is opened?

[DeltaTrev]

Ahem.

Your hero is a doper just like the rest. So sorry.

http://velocitynation.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden

8 stage positives in the 1999 TdF. He wasn't drinking kool-aid to win that tour.

I absolutely know of professional riders that have doped, but this story is just that a story........if the UCI, or ASo, or any other drug authority has actual proof that Lance Armstrong doped, they would say so, but not one entity is willing to put that so called proof in the public domain.......and lets be realistic if they had proof they would show us all, once and for all......but there has never been anyone from any organisation that has showed us the proof......Lance may well have doped, but until there is proof, lets put this in the "moon landings was faked" binder.....and yes I can produce lots of documents to show that, just don't ask me for proof.

[DeltaTrev]

[quote="runningman]can we add Usain Bolt and Michael Phelps to the "must be doping list".
[/quote]

mmmmmmmmmmmmm......Michael Phelps and a bong, guilty as suggested

Usain Bolt..........nothing yet, hopefully nothing ever.

[दिवंगत]

If LA wins this year, will the doubters still be doubters?

Surely even the most jaded, anti-Lance, drug conspiracy, guilty-because-I-say-he-is folks will have to admit that Lance couldn't possibly dope this year and get away with it? Or, at least, do so and still maintain their objectivity.

We'll know a lot more in about 15 days.

[jonovision_man]

Ahem.

Your hero is a doper just like the rest. So sorry.

http://velocitynation.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden

8 stage positives in the 1999 TdF. He wasn't drinking kool-aid to win that tour.

I absolutely know of professional riders that have doped, but this story is just that a story........if the UCI, or ASo, or any other drug authority has actual proof that Lance Armstrong doped, they would say so, but not one entity is willing to put that so called proof in the public domain.......and lets be realistic if they had proof they would show us all, once and for all......but there has never been anyone from any organisation that has showed us the proof......Lance may well have doped, but until there is proof, lets put this in the "moon landings was faked" binder.....and yes I can produce lots of documents to show that, just don't ask me for proof.

They couldn't show us because technically those samples weren't supposed to be tested in a way that could identify any of the riders.

But they were.

jono

[Sir Crashalot]

I tend to be one of those odd balls who believe that all top pro-athletes are on something or another, whether it be in the Olympics, cycling, football, baseball, hockey, soccer players, cylocrossers, runers, triathletes, whatever sport if there is a whole bunch of $$$ to be made, someone's "medical" plan is better than someone elses. I really don't believe any of them are truly "clean".

Poker is not a sport... thanks to the NHL strike, apparently it is.

But, I don't care. It's their life & they have to live with the consequences. I do like to watch the events though

[eljeffe]

can we add Usain Bolt and Michael Phelps to the "must be doping list".

mmmmmmmmmmmmm......Michael Phelps and a bong, guilty as suggested

Tons of swimmers are using bongs and vapourizers to smoke their marijuana now in order to get the competitive edge. Oh wait, no they're not. Turns out marijuana is actually not performance enhancing and only illegal due to some pretty archaic views on prohibition by our ultra-conservative lawmakers. If he had been caught smoking a cigarette would it be such a big deal? I don't smoke pot, but I think it's ridiculous the hoopla that was generated by Phelps smoking it. If anything, it's just another case for the inevitable legalization. Years from now, that whole issue will seem silly.

My views on using performance enhancing drugs to either compete at the highest level, or dominate a sport are quite different. Most the points have already been covered, so I won't add any fuel to that fire... and just back out of this thread the way I came.

[runningman]

Ahem.

Your hero is a doper just like the rest. So sorry.

http://velocitynation.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden

8 stage positives in the 1999 TdF. He wasn't drinking kool-aid to win that tour.

I absolutely know of professional riders that have doped, but this story is just that a story........if the UCI, or ASo, or any other drug authority has actual proof that Lance Armstrong doped, they would say so, but not one entity is willing to put that so called proof in the public domain.......and lets be realistic if they had proof they would show us all, once and for all......but there has never been anyone from any organisation that has showed us the proof......Lance may well have doped, but until there is proof, lets put this in the "moon landings was faked" binder.....and yes I can produce lots of documents to show that, just don't ask me for proof.

Exactly. Especially when he has been so targeted and there are so many people who would love to seem him test positive so they could broadcast it everywhere.

I'm not saying he did or didn't, but I don't think ANYONE on this board has any authority to say they know he has doped. I guess there are lots of tabloids out there people take as gospel though

[DeltaTrev]

Ahem.

Your hero is a doper just like the rest. So sorry.

http://velocitynation.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden

8 stage positives in the 1999 TdF. He wasn't drinking kool-aid to win that tour.

I absolutely know of professional riders that have doped, but this story is just that a story........if the UCI, or ASo, or any other drug authority has actual proof that Lance Armstrong doped ? they would say so, but not one entity is willing to put that so called proof in the public domain.......and lets be realistic if they had proof they would show us all, once and for all......but there has never been anyone from any organisation that has showed us the proof......Lance may well have doped, but until there is proof, lets put this in the "moon landings was faked" binder.....and yes I can produce lots of documents to show that, just don't ask me for proof.

They couldn't show us because technically those samples weren't supposed to be tested in a way that could identify any of the riders.

But they were.

jono

NOOOOOOOO

.......technically if they were positive in any way, some big wig would say "Lance doped, heres the proof, sue me, if I am lying"........, who the he** could keep their mouths shut if they had proof of Lance doping, the story would be worth millions...even "tricky dicky" Pound won't show us the proof...because as yet there isn't any....not guilty until proven otherwise......oh yeah, not only were the moon landings faked, but there were 2 shooters on the grassy knoll, and Michael Jackson, is in a Memphis starbucks with Elvis.....really I read it in National Enquirer

.......show me the proof please, otherwise its National Enquirer material, just As Michael Ashendens artice is a joke when it states "So, there is no doubt in my own mind, He (lance Armstrong) took epo during the 99 tour"......who cares what is in his own mind, when the truth is out there, so he leads us down that pathway of what's in his mind, which is an opinion, not factual, but never says "Lance doped" here's the proof.

[dgrant]

Ahem.

Your hero is a doper just like the rest. So sorry.

http://velocitynation.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden

8 stage positives in the 1999 TdF. He wasn't drinking kool-aid to win that tour.

I absolutely know of professional riders that have doped, but this story is just that a story........if the UCI, or ASo, or any other drug authority has actual proof that Lance Armstrong doped ? they would say so, but not one entity is willing to put that so called proof in the public domain.......and lets be realistic if they had proof they would show us all, once and for all......but there has never been anyone from any organisation that has showed us the proof......Lance may well have doped, but until there is proof, lets put this in the "moon landings was faked" binder.....and yes I can produce lots of documents to show that, just don't ask me for proof.

They couldn't show us because technically those samples weren't supposed to be tested in a way that could identify any of the riders.

But they were.

jono

NOOOOOOOO

.......technically if they were positive in any way, some big wig would say "Lance doped, heres the proof, sue me, if I am lying"........, who the he** could keep their mouths shut if they had proof of Lance doping, the story would be worth millions...even "tricky dicky" Pound won't show us the proof...because as yet there isn't any....not guilty until proven otherwise......oh yeah, not only were the moon landings faked, but there were 2 shooters on the grassy knoll, and Michael Jackson, is in a Memphis starbucks with Elvis.....really I read it in National Enquirer

.......show me the proof please, otherwise its National Enquirer material, just As Michael Ashendens artice is a joke when it states "So, there is no doubt in my own mind, He (lance Armstrong) took epo during the 99 tour"......who cares what is in his own mind, when the truth is out there, so he leads us down that pathway of what's in his mind, which is an opinion, not factual, but never says "Lance doped" here's the proof.

I don't really follow... Are you saying those '99 urine tests don't exist? Or they aren't Lance Armstrong's? Or they are incorrectly analyzed?

[DougG]

Has he been found guilty of doping? No? Then in my mind it is all speculation, which is meaningless. Why try to brng a man down when there exists no proof?

[DeltaTrev]

I don't really follow... Are you saying those '99 urine tests don't exist? Or they aren't Lance Armstrong's? Or they are incorrectly analyzed?

The 99 urine samples exist....fact
Some of the tests "might" be positive....according to speculation
Some of the tests "might" be Lance Armstrong's according to speculation, or maybe they were 4 stage winner, "Super Mario" Cipollini results, or any of the other 178 riders....speculation

Big difference between fact, speculation, and until a "big wig" actually stands up and says "here's the proof Lance cheated....he's innocent.....and no one has shown us the proof, and unless you can show me the proof to back up what you think, without resorting to "in my own mind" statements,and speculation, this really isn't a debate is it ?.......Show me the science, show me, and everyone else, how you know Lance is a cheat....Prove it

[DougG]

As Jean Chrtien says; the proof is da proof.

Turns out marijuana is actually not performance enhancing and only illegal due to some pretty archaic views on prohibition by our ultra-conservative lawmakers.

That's an opinion.

Pot definitely can be performance enhancing; it is supposed to relax you, which can help your mental preparation - or not. Any substance is performance enhancing to someone.