Running Mania

DougG wrote:I really don't care what he took. My opinion of him will not change.

+1 There are a lot of people who are idolized. Some way less worthy than LA. Livestrong has raised millions of dollars for cancer research and education, as well as donated 1/2 a million to Hurricane Katrina relief. If overlooking him cheating at a bike race makes me unethical, then so be it. Sports need an icon, even a slightly tarnished one.

Have you ever watched Survivor? IMO it's like the juror at the finale who is disgruntled and can't believe someone would lie to get to the end, even though they were doing the same thing and got caught. In the end, they played the game and lost to someone better.

DougG wrote:And here I thought the soap operas were al cancelled do I think Lance took something? Yes. However what that something is remains to be seen. The terperformance enhancing drugs is another phrase that has been thrown around so muc that it is meaningless. Caffeine is a performance enhancer, as are many other everyday drugs.
Lance has been found guilty of nothing. He is one of, if not the most tested athlete of his time, and he passed every test. I believe someone is innocent until proven guilty. Lance has earned the benefit of a thousands doubts. Most of those coming public have alterior motives for their accusations, so I ignore them.
I really don't care what he took. My opinion of him will not change.

Doug...nice to hear your opinion again, and nice to see you put it so eloquently as usual. Agree +1


As for MyTriLife..... dude, there has been a bunch of your kind on these boards who hide behind their PC's sinking to the level of insults not really caring about others right to sensible speech. Try and keep it nice, as right now, from my experience, the mods are emailing each other about a "thread that's getting heated", they will shut it down and we will have yet another great discussion gone to the pooper because of posts like yours! Then comes the parental post reminding us that there are rulers, blah blah blah.

Sooooo.......speak your mind.....just be kind....it's pretty easy!

If you were on the team bus all those years and saw something, produce it. And, just as an FYI, I do not condone fraud either, actualy spent years fighting it for a living. HOWEVER.....not sure if ANYONE would believe me or not.....but there ARE people who DO lie under oath.....AND DON'T GO TO JAIL!!!!

B

Marion Jones was tested as much or more than Lance. She passed every test. She doped her whole career. Strike one.

It's "ulterior" motive and no... being subpoenaed is not an ulterior motive, it's a requirement of the LAW. Strike two.

DougG wrote:
I really don't care what he took.


Then you sir have no ethics. Strike three. Thanks for playing.

Forgive me oh righteous one, for my spelling errors.
This might shock you, but we are entitled to our opinions even if they do not conform with yours. You must be very wise, knowing pretty well nothing about me, yet you understand my ethics. I am impressed.

Bman, as usual it is always great to hear from you.

Since Lance Armstrong was a cyclist in the Tour DE France (as well as many tours) he should be treated like a cyclist first and foremost if he in fact is found out to have used PED's. He should be sanctioned as any other cyclist would. The LAF and LiveStrong foundation should have nothing to do with it. Having cancer should have nothing to do with it. Following the rules of the governing body should be all there is. So many in the past have been tested countless times, never tested positive but have come out and admitted to PED's.

Unfortunately the evidence/assumptions/rumours that have been around for 15 years are now all coming to head creating the perfect storm. This time other cyclists and team members have the threat of prison time if they continue to lie. Cycling has been and is a culture, they all know what is going on around them. Just like so many other sports. Armstrong has been quiet since the Hincapie story. Bruyneel has left the Giro and is not saying a word since the 60 minutes story came out. This is taking too long this time for either to come up with a rebuttal to the stories. It was easy to discredit Floyd Landis. A little more difficult to discredit Hamilton and almost impossible to discredit the brother/soldier Hincapie.

If there is enough information that becomes public or for the grand jury to move forward I would hope Lance Armstrong comes clean. Spill his guts. He is the key figurehead for cycling even though he is now retired. If Lance talks people will listen - he can change cycling by targeting the governing body. What sport has such a huge issue with PEDs that will not allow an outside agency to conduct the drug testing. The UCI performs all of their own drug testing and they control the results. Outside agencies, USADA (at this year's Tour of California), WADA, private testing labs have all offered to do the testing only to be frustrated at the process required by UCI and backed out as their integrity could not be upheld. This whole issue starts at the top of the food chain and Lance is not the top.

SteveF wrote:+1 There are a lot of people who are idolized. Some way less worthy than LA. Livestrong has raised millions of dollars for cancer research and education,

Correction: they raied money for "awareness". Hang on tight, there's more to come on the charity stuff... and it ain't pretty.

jono

mytrilife wrote:I happen to think that fraud and cheating are NOT ok.

I agree... and after so many other riders have been taken down from that era it hardly seems right that the biggest baddest cheater of them all has gotten away with it, with his 7 wins intact.

If you're a domestique and you're caught, they can't throw you under the bus fast enough. If you're Lance and you're caught, it's all chuckles and handshakes with the UCI, a few envelopes and you're golden. Fair?

jono

[Moderator]

A lot of good points are being made in this thread.

Can we continue to make them without attacking one another's character?

Thank you!

[/moderator]

If you're a domestique and you're caught, they can't throw you under the bus fast enough. If you're Lance and you're caught, it's all chuckles and handshakes with the UCI, a few envelopes and you're golden. Fair?

Fair? That's life. Stars in any endeavour get different treatment that "regular" people. That includes people making unproven accusations against them.

turd ferguson wrote:[Moderator]

A lot of good points are being made in this thread.

Can we continue to make them without attacking one another's character?

Thank you!

[/moderator]

told ya!

B

DougG wrote:

If you're a domestique and you're caught, they can't throw you under the bus fast enough. If you're Lance and you're caught, it's all chuckles and handshakes with the UCI, a few envelopes and you're golden. Fair?

Fair? That's life. Stars in any endeavour get different treatment that "regular" people. That includes people making unproven accusations against them.

Bingo...that's exactly why Snoop Dog wont be caught with weed in his pockets..........but his "make up" person will!!!

B

Hide behind my keyboard? There are plenty of people on this board that have met me in person and/or know me personally. Private message me... I'll give you my phone number, we can have a chat.

I never said anyone didn't have a right to an opinion. In fact... I welcome everyones opinion.
If you are going to regurgitate Lance Armstrong lawyer PR spin however, I'm going to refute it.

The issue that seems to have everyone up in arms is that I questioned someone's ethics.
Sports have rules. The last I checked, doping with EPO, etc, was banned from cycling.
If one says "I think Lance was great, so I don't care if he doped", then I have to ask... what rules DO matter to that person?
When you make statements such as that, you bring your own character in question.
If pointing that out was "attacking someone's character" and against the rules here, then I apologize.

The irony of this... Lance's defense of doping allegations is to attack the character of everyone who speaks out.

When you make statements such as that, you bring your own character in question.

You can have your own opinion, as erroneous as it is.

DougG wrote:

When you make statements such as that, you bring your own character in question.

You can have your own opinion, as erroneous as it is.

Thanks. I appreciate that.

And this just in... another Lance EPO "positive" at 2002 Dauphine.

Details. Not "positive" but "at the limit" for suspicion. Dr. Ferrari was a great coach indeed.

DougG wrote:

If you're a domestique and you're caught, they can't throw you under the bus fast enough. If you're Lance and you're caught, it's all chuckles and handshakes with the UCI, a few envelopes and you're golden. Fair?

Fair? That's life. Stars in any endeavour get different treatment that "regular" people. That includes people making unproven accusations against them.

It was life - until the U.S. government took an interest. Lance is going down, and is sure as hell looks good on him. IMO.

BTW, as for "unproven" - witness testimony under oath is accepted in every court of law for a reason... There are people serving life sentences or on death row with less evidence against them than Lance.

jono

BTW, as for "unproven" - witness testimony under oath is accepted in every court of law for a reason... There are people serving life sentences or on death row with less evidence against them than Lance.

No charges have been laid by anyone. If there was solid evidence why not charge him (or disqualify him)?

DougG wrote:

BTW, as for "unproven" - witness testimony under oath is accepted in every court of law for a reason... There are people serving life sentences or on death row with less evidence against them than Lance.

No charges have been laid by anyone. If there was solid evidence why not charge him (or disqualify him)?

That is what the US Grand Jury is deciding, even with Lance and his lawyers calling it a waste of taxpayer's money.

Good people can do bad good things.

Bad people can do good things.

I can't see Lance ever coming clean, if he was a cheater. He would have to give back $7M to the sponsor who he won the settlement against, plus all the other cases where he got his legal fees back. He would be admitting to perjury in the same sponsor case, and perhaps in some of the other cases if they ever went to testimony, which I'm not sure if they did or not. Don't know if any of it would result in jail time for perjury but there is that potential. He could be convicted of smuggling drugs into a number of countries and perhaps across state lines. I think the US Postal sponsorship could result in fraud charges as well. Therefore, I don't think he will ever come clean no matter the evidence against him.

DougG wrote:

BTW, as for "unproven" - witness testimony under oath is accepted in every court of law for a reason... There are people serving life sentences or on death row with less evidence against them than Lance.

No charges have been laid by anyone. If there was solid evidence why not charge him (or disqualify him)?

Wait for it... it's coming. Bonds, Marian Jones, they all took time and were less complex than the Lance case. His spans multiple continents and literally hundreds of riders and team personnel...

jono

The ugliest thing about this whole thing is the glee with which some people (yes, some of you, reading this...) are anticipating what is actually going to be a tragedy for millions of people when they see one of their heroes, someone who has given them inspiration and has been a role model [to them], torn down. I think it's something that should make right minded people sad, regardless of whether or not LA actually did dope, not gloat all over the internet.

That's MY opinion. I already know what one or two of you might write in response to my comment, so know this; I already know your position on it and I don't give a crap what you think about mine.

Mark. wrote:The ugliest thing about this whole thing is the glee with which some people (yes, some of you, reading this...) are anticipating what is actually going to be a tragedy for millions of people when they see one of their heroes, someone who has given them inspiration and has been a role model [to them], torn down. I think it's something that should make right minded people sad, regardless of whether or not LA actually did dope, not gloat all over the internet.

That's MY opinion. I already know what one or two of you might write in response to my comment, so know this; I already know your position on it and I don't give a crap what you think about mine.

You talkin to me? I agree with you. I know a lady who raised $25,000 to ride with Lance. She is.. umm.. not impressed at the moment to say the least.
But there are plenty of heroes out there to inspire and encourage people. My friend, the rest of the world, and cycling will do just fine without Lance.

“Never idealize others. They will never live up to your expectations. " - Leo F. Buscaglia

I went back and read my responses in this thread carefully. And no point do I take any GLEE with demise of the Armstrong myth.
If you want to know... in 2003 I wore a yellow wristband, I was reading Lance's "It's not about the bike", and getting up at 4:30am every morning to watch Le Tour to cheer on Lance.
But things never added up for me, something never sat right, and I questioned things... and started to uncover the real cycling stories that never get reported in the mainstream media in North America or during the highly biased tour coverage we see.

As the truth comes out.. it highlights the ugly secret that most cycling fans would rather not admit... that cycling is probably the dirtiest sport on the planet.
It's a tragedy it got this bad, but I see hope that the cleansing is coming... and things might finally change.

Mark. wrote:The ugliest thing about this whole thing is the glee with which some people (yes, some of you, reading this...) are anticipating what is actually going to be a tragedy for millions of people when they see one of their heroes, someone who has given them inspiration and has been a role model [to them], torn down. I think it's something that should make right minded people sad, regardless of whether or not LA actually did dope, not gloat all over the internet.

That's MY opinion. I already know what one or two of you might write in response to my comment, so know this; I already know your position on it and I don't give a crap what you think about mine.

+1.

Wow,

Quite the discussion.

If we go back through history, from baseball to football to tri to running to any sport, athletes are always trying to get an edge. Some make mistakes, things that are banned are changed etc. The world evolves.

Lance won 7 times, did a WORLD of good for raising awareness for cancer and is the most arrogant confident cyclist you will ever meet. Good for him on all accounts.

The year is 2011, do we really care about 1999? Why are we even talking about this? Don't we all have some training or running to do?

I don't live in the past. Time to move on, enjoy life to the fullest each and every day, you never know when it will be your last.

What were we talking about again? Lance who? Who cares..........

The ugliest thing about this whole thing is the glee with which some people (yes, some of you, reading this...) are anticipating what is actually going to be a tragedy for millions of people when they see one of their heroes, someone who has given them inspiration and has been a role model [to them], torn down. I think it's something that should make right minded people sad, regardless of whether or not LA actually did dope, not gloat all over the internet.

That's MY opinion. I already know what one or two of you might write in response to my comment, so know this; I already know your position on it and I don't give a crap what you think about mine.

Well said.

Relevant:

I read this morning that lance has beefed up his legal team by hiring two lawyers that represented mlb players in a doping case.

If he was innocent, why would he hire lawyers????? Lawyers who have represented dopers!!!!! The MOUNTAIN of evidence grows!!!!!