Who thinks Lance could win at Kona?

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Re: Who thinks Lance could win at Kona?

Postby jonovision_man » Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:26 pm

Jwolf wrote:I just still don't understand how he can be thought of as an inspiration.


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Re: Who thinks Lance could win at Kona?

Postby drghfx » Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:52 am

Jwolf wrote:I just still don't understand how he can be thought of as an inspiration.


It's all about celebrity. Justin Beiber throws up on stage and he's an inspiration that he kept on with his concert.

As much as I think Armstrong is not a very nice human being, if he inspires a person fighting cancer then that is a good thing. However I think organizations walk a fine line when they use an alledged cheat to raise funds for charity.
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Re: Who thinks Lance could win at Kona?

Postby jonovision_man » Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:37 am

drghfx wrote:As much as I think Armstrong is not a very nice human being, if he inspires a person fighting cancer then that is a good thing. However I think organizations walk a fine line when they use an alledged cheat to raise funds for charity.


It's a very fine line, especially when some of the things he's convicted of taking have been linked to causing cancer!

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Re: Who thinks Lance could win at Kona?

Postby Wu wei » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:03 am

drghfx wrote:
Jwolf wrote:I just still don't understand how he can be thought of as an inspiration.


It's all about celebrity. Justin Beiber throws up on stage and he's an inspiration that he kept on with his concert.

As much as I think Armstrong is not a very nice human being, if he inspires a person fighting cancer then that is a good thing. However I think organizations walk a fine line when they use an alledged cheat to raise funds for charity.


Not alleged. He is a cheat. 1000+ pages of USADA evidence coming up...

EDIT: size of report was off
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Re: Who thinks Lance could win at Kona?

Postby RobAllen » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:37 am

The USADA has issued their statement

http://www.usada.org/cyclinginvestigationstatement.html

Documents to be released this afternoon.

"It took tremendous courage for the riders on the USPS Team and others to come forward and speak truthfully. It is not easy to admit your mistakes and accept your punishment. But that is what these riders have done for the good of the sport, and for the young riders who hope to one day reach their dreams without using dangerous drugs or methods.

These eleven (11) teammates of Lance Armstrong, in alphabetical order, are Frankie Andreu, Michael Barry, Tom Danielson, Tyler Hamilton, George Hincapie, Floyd Landis, Levi Leipheimer, Stephen Swart, Christian Vande Velde, Jonathan Vaughters and David Zabriskie."

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Re: Who thinks Lance could win at Kona?

Postby Wu wei » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:44 am

First confession of the day George Hincapie:
http://www.bicycling.com/news/pro-cycling/george-hincapie-admits-doping

Must be a liar and have a vendetta against Lance....
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Re: Who thinks Lance could win at Kona?

Postby Dstew » Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:06 am

drghfx wrote:
Jwolf wrote:I just still don't understand how he can be thought of as an inspiration.


It's all about celebrity. Justin Beiber throws up on stage and he's an inspiration that he kept on with his concert.

As much as I think Armstrong is not a very nice human being, if he inspires a person fighting cancer then that is a good thing. However I think organizations walk a fine line when they use an alledged cheat to raise funds for charity.


My dad had brain cancer at the same time Ted Kennedy had brain cancer. Kennedy the liberal, my dad the conservative, the politics were irrelevant as there was Ted going for walks, sailing and otherwise providing the illusion at the very least of being able to carry on. Within hours of Ted Kennedy dying of cancer, my dad wrote his own obituary and I could see some of the fight leaving him.

Lance might be a cheat and a lousy human being to boot, but unless one has had cancer or seen someone who has had cancer I do not think one can really appreciate what Lance means. For a person with cancer who sees their entire world collapse around them, Lance is a symbol, a mythical creature who not only survived cancer, he went on to win the Tour de France. So he is a symbol that one does not just have to survive cancer but that they can go onto bigger and better things despite it. Does this excuse his cheating or justify it, of course not. Does it tarnish the symbolism, there is no question it does BUT the essence of the story remains. Everyone was cheating so the cancer guy who was cheating still beat them.

This is the same reason Jake Layton's widow will not tell anyone what type of cancer he died of. I may disagree with her politics but I sent her an email fully supporting her as I saw the other side of the symbol and that is people who have cancer are going to think, I have cancer type "X", Jack had cancer type "X" and would have access to the best medical care in the world and he died so why will I survive.

So like rabid dogs with a bone, continue to rip Lance with blinded rage with regards to what he did on the bike and how he did that for money and ego as he probably desires that but keep in mind the good he did off the bike with regards to the cancer cause no matter how tainted that may be and thus why others do not share your view. I personally reject the caricature of him as pure hero or of pure villain as he shares the same duality we all do as human beings. It is why I do not believe in hero worship. I can admire Lance for whatever his motivation to take the time to fly to Calgary on several occasions to help build a small bike ride to raise funds and awareness into a massive event and at the same time condemn his cheating.

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Re: Who thinks Lance could win at Kona?

Postby Wu wei » Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:27 am

Lance monetized and branded cancer for his personal gain. That is far worse than any doping in sport.

Dstew wrote:
drghfx wrote:
Jwolf wrote:I just still don't understand how he can be thought of as an inspiration.


It's all about celebrity. Justin Beiber throws up on stage and he's an inspiration that he kept on with his concert.

As much as I think Armstrong is not a very nice human being, if he inspires a person fighting cancer then that is a good thing. However I think organizations walk a fine line when they use an alledged cheat to raise funds for charity.


My dad had brain cancer at the same time Ted Kennedy had brain cancer. Kennedy the liberal, my dad the conservative, the politics were irrelevant as there was Ted going for walks, sailing and otherwise providing the illusion at the very least of being able to carry on. Within hours of Ted Kennedy dying of cancer, my dad wrote his own obituary and I could see some of the fight leaving him.

Lance might be a cheat and a lousy human being to boot, but unless one has had cancer or seen someone who has had cancer I do not think one can really appreciate what Lance means. For a person with cancer who sees their entire world collapse around them, Lance is a symbol, a mythical creature who not only survived cancer, he went on to win the Tour de France. So he is a symbol that one does not just have to survive cancer but that they can go onto bigger and better things despite it. Does this excuse his cheating or justify it, of course not. Does it tarnish the symbolism, there is no question it does BUT the essence of the story remains. Everyone was cheating so the cancer guy who was cheating still beat them.

This is the same reason Jake Layton's widow will not tell anyone what type of cancer he died of. I may disagree with her politics but I sent her an email fully supporting her as I saw the other side of the symbol and that is people who have cancer are going to think, I have cancer type "X", Jack had cancer type "X" and would have access to the best medical care in the world and he died so why will I survive.

So like rabid dogs with a bone, continue to rip Lance with blinded rage with regards to what he did on the bike and how he did that for money and ego as he probably desires that but keep in mind the good he did off the bike with regards to the cancer cause no matter how tainted that may be and thus why others do not share your view. I personally reject the caricature of him as pure hero or of pure villain as he shares the same duality we all do as human beings. It is why I do not believe in hero worship. I can admire Lance for whatever his motivation to take the time to fly to Calgary on several occasions to help build a small bike ride to raise funds and awareness into a massive event and at the same time condemn his cheating.
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Re: Who thinks Lance could win at Kona?

Postby drghfx » Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:30 am

Everybody cheated in bike racing. If you didn't cheat, you weren't useful and no team would keep you. The issue I have with Lance is his hipocrisy. When people like Andreu testified under oath and Hamilton and Landis came out and said Armstrong cheated, he threw them under the bus. He called them liars and proven drug cheats. These people were all his friends. He'd sooner his friend Andreu perjure himself than tell the truth about Armstrong's cheating. What type of a friend, or human being for that matter, would do that? That is what separates Armstrong from all of the other cyclists who have been caught cheating or admitted cheating. They didn't protect themselves at the cost of friendships and calling their friends liars and cheats.
Last edited by drghfx on Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who thinks Lance could win at Kona?

Postby Wu wei » Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:53 am

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Re: Who thinks Lance could win at Kona?

Postby Spirit Unleashed » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:36 pm

5 years ago, when I was reading Lance's book, I was inspired. It was a hero's story of climbing to the top of cycling and also beating cancer.

Now, since I believe about the drugs and perhaps the drugs caused the cancer, his book can't be a truthful story. So, Lance inspired me then; now, I'll choose another inspiration.
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Re: Who thinks Lance could win at Kona?

Postby Dstew » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:46 pm

Wu wei wrote:Lance monetized and branded cancer for his personal gain. That is far worse than any doping in sport.


That is likely true but if someone else finds inspiration for their battle with cancer from Lance, how does that affect you? For me personally, I find inspiration in performances, not the person. When I watched the mountain stages at this years Tour and how much pain and suffering they could endure, it made my next long run that much easier. All I can remember is the guy was French and had a German sounding name and wore a green jersey. If one does not put people on pedestals there is no need to knock them off.

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Re: Who thinks Lance could win at Kona?

Postby purdy65 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:03 pm

Spirit wrote:5 years ago, when I was reading Lance's book, I was inspired. It was a hero's story of climbing to the top of cycling and also beating cancer.

Now, since I believe about the drugs and perhaps the drugs caused the cancer, his book can't be a truthful story. So, Lance inspired me then; now, I'll choose another inspiration.


I agree with you Spirit. I have always quietly and secretly wondered if the doping CAUSED his cancer. I never said it out loud until I read it somewhere that the things he was into in the 90's could defintely make him more susecptible to certain types of cancer - including testicular cancer.
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Re: Who thinks Lance could win at Kona?

Postby RobAllen » Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:15 pm

The summary of the decision is out.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/109619079/Reasoned-Decision

Warning. It is about 200 pages long.

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Re: Who thinks Lance could win at Kona?

Postby jonovision_man » Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:29 pm



Ugh. :cry:

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Re: Who thinks Lance could win at Kona?

Postby turd ferguson » Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:40 pm

Dstew wrote:
drghfx wrote:
Jwolf wrote:I just still don't understand how he can be thought of as an inspiration.


It's all about celebrity. Justin Beiber throws up on stage and he's an inspiration that he kept on with his concert.

As much as I think Armstrong is not a very nice human being, if he inspires a person fighting cancer then that is a good thing. However I think organizations walk a fine line when they use an alledged cheat to raise funds for charity.


My dad had brain cancer at the same time Ted Kennedy had brain cancer. Kennedy the liberal, my dad the conservative, the politics were irrelevant as there was Ted going for walks, sailing and otherwise providing the illusion at the very least of being able to carry on. Within hours of Ted Kennedy dying of cancer, my dad wrote his own obituary and I could see some of the fight leaving him.

Lance might be a cheat and a lousy human being to boot, but unless one has had cancer or seen someone who has had cancer I do not think one can really appreciate what Lance means. For a person with cancer who sees their entire world collapse around them, Lance is a symbol, a mythical creature who not only survived cancer, he went on to win the Tour de France. So he is a symbol that one does not just have to survive cancer but that they can go onto bigger and better things despite it. Does this excuse his cheating or justify it, of course not. Does it tarnish the symbolism, there is no question it does BUT the essence of the story remains. Everyone was cheating so the cancer guy who was cheating still beat them.

This is the same reason Jake Layton's widow will not tell anyone what type of cancer he died of. I may disagree with her politics but I sent her an email fully supporting her as I saw the other side of the symbol and that is people who have cancer are going to think, I have cancer type "X", Jack had cancer type "X" and would have access to the best medical care in the world and he died so why will I survive.

So like rabid dogs with a bone, continue to rip Lance with blinded rage with regards to what he did on the bike and how he did that for money and ego as he probably desires that but keep in mind the good he did off the bike with regards to the cancer cause no matter how tainted that may be and thus why others do not share your view. I personally reject the caricature of him as pure hero or of pure villain as he shares the same duality we all do as human beings. It is why I do not believe in hero worship. I can admire Lance for whatever his motivation to take the time to fly to Calgary on several occasions to help build a small bike ride to raise funds and awareness into a massive event and at the same time condemn his cheating.


I agree with you 100%. LA was an inspiration to both my parents going through cancer. He's definitely more of an inspiration than anonymous internet commenters who have spent years ripping LA.
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Re: Who thinks Lance could win at Kona?

Postby jonovision_man » Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:52 pm

turd ferguson wrote:I agree with you 100%. LA was an inspiration to both my parents going through cancer. He's definitely more of an inspiration than anonymous internet commenters who have spent years ripping LA.


Yeah like what did Lance do to deserve it??? :roll:

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Re: Who thinks Lance could win at Kona?

Postby Joe Dwarf » Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:53 pm

RobAllen wrote:The summary of the decision is out.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/109619079/Reasoned-Decision

Warning. It is about 200 pages long.
TLDR. Well, skimmed the first few pages. Whether you agree with them or not, I think the tone they take is pretty unprofessional. Sample:
As a consequence of a number of courageous riders willingness to break the Code of Silence—the “omerta”

Really, "omerta"?

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Re: Who thinks Lance could win at Kona?

Postby Wu wei » Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:00 pm

Joe Dwarf wrote:
RobAllen wrote:The summary of the decision is out.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/109619079/Reasoned-Decision

Warning. It is about 200 pages long.
TLDR. Well, skimmed the first few pages. Whether you agree with them or not, I think the tone they take is pretty unprofessional. Sample:
As a consequence of a number of courageous riders willingness to break the Code of Silence—the “omerta”

Really, "omerta"?


TLDR? More like TLDWTR (Too long didn't want to read). How's the sand taste?

Here's a sample:



Page | 140
A.

Armstrong’s Blood Test Results During the 2009 and 2010 Tours de Franceare Consistent with His Continued Use of Blood Doping
USADA collected nine blood samples from Armstrong between February 13, 2009, andApril 30, 2012. The WADA database, ADAMS, contains results from another 29 Armstrong blood samples collected by UCI between October 16, 2008 and January 18, 2011.
794
At USADA’s request, these blood test results were examined by Professor Christopher J.Gore, Head of Physiology at the Australian Institute of Sport.
795
Prof. Gore observed that acluster of five Armstrong samples during the 2009 Tour de France and his two samples duringthe 2010 Tour de France contained an unusually low percentage of reticulocytes.Reticulocytes are immature red blood cells created naturally by the body. When anathlete adds additional red blood cells to his circulation by transfusing his own stored blood, the body’s production of reticulocytes is suppressed. This is reflected by a decrease in the athlete’sreticulocyte percentage. When Prof. Gore compared the suppressed reticulocyte percentage inArmstrong’s 2009 and 2010 Tour de France samples to the reticulocyte percentage in his other samples, Prof. Gore concluded that the approximate likelihood of Armstrong’s seven suppressedreticulocyte values during the 2009 and 2010 Tours de France occurring naturally was less thanone in a million.


There are notes about bank payments to Ferrari, emails, a mass of testimony, etc.
And you're concerned about their "tone"?
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Re: Who thinks Lance could win at Kona?

Postby Wu wei » Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:06 pm

“It is not he who reviles or strikes you who insults you, but your opinion that these things are insulting.”
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Re: Who thinks Lance could win at Kona?

Postby jonovision_man » Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:07 pm

drghfx wrote:Everybody cheated in bike racing. If you didn't cheat, you weren't useful and no team would keep you. The issue I have with Lance is his hipocrisy. When people like Andreu testified under oath and Hamilton and Landis came out and said Armstrong cheated, he threw them under the bus. He called them liars and proven drug cheats. These people were all his friends. He'd sooner his friend Andreu perjure himself than tell the truth about Armstrong's cheating. What type of a friend, or human being for that matter, would do that? That is what separates Armstrong from all of the other cyclists who have been caught cheating or admitted cheating. They didn't protect themselves at the cost of friendships and calling their friends liars and cheats.


He's still doing it!
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstro ... ada-report

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Re: Who thinks Lance could win at Kona?

Postby drghfx » Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:10 pm

turd ferguson wrote:I agree with you 100%. LA was an inspiration to both my parents going through cancer. He's definitely more of an inspiration than anonymous internet commenters who have spent years ripping LA.


However, if you assume the USADA has the evidence that backs up their assertion that Lance basically forced his teammates to take drugs, do blood doping etc. that put his teammates' health at risk and maybe even increased their risk of cancer, or be fired, then how much of an inspiration can he be now? How can any cancer related charity use him as an icon, inspiration, spokesman or fund raiser? Me thinks the emperor has no clothes.
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Re: Who thinks Lance could win at Kona?

Postby TheBman » Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:13 pm

So someone put me on to this thread today only to read pages and pages of comments that give me two impressions:

1- There are indeed people out there who just LOVE to surround themselves with negativity. They seem to spend more time saying hurtful things and enjoy every minute of it. They thrive on the downfall of others...perhaps it makes them feel better....better at life in general, better at pulling the carpet out from underneath others, better at, quite honestly being bitter. Zero sensitivity to those around who perhaps took a bit away from the legacy you so easily denounce with a slight smirk!

2-Having been for a number of years, THE LA FAN of RM, I bow to the awesomeness of others....you know who you are. You seem to know Lance better than, well, frankly LA himself. You posy as if YOU were there when he took his drugs, you saw him ingest it....you pushed the syringe in for him. I feel ashamed that I was posting on RM as a HUGE LA fan, but alas, I knew nothing. Hidden behind the two LA aficionados the board now has, are two people who obviously know the inner circle. Did they work for Postal at one point? Perhaps they used to work at Mellow Johnny's shop and saw emails no one else has seen. I suggest that is Cycling news wants to put the cherry on top of this story, they should read this thread for the REAL, unbiased "proof" that Lance was a cheat.
Cheat or no cheat, I will proudly wear my Livestrong colours...I will not hide my Livestrong tattoo....all while enjoying my happiness filled life helping others cope with cancer rather than living in a negative, hatred filled existence that some are so obviously doing.
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http://howsbrian.com/2012/08/how-lance-and-livestrong-totally-screwed-me/
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Re: Who thinks Lance could win at Kona?

Postby jonovision_man » Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:14 pm



If you're going to be inspired by someone... how about someone who owns up to their choices?

People will be disappointed and say I was wrong, that I should have chosen differently, and am just making excuses. I made the decision I made. I don't offer this description of the sport as an excuse, simply as an explanation of the context and reason for my decision. I won't lie about it—I have to own it—I accept responsibility for my decision.


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Re: Who thinks Lance could win at Kona?

Postby Wu wei » Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:15 pm

Who's credible now?

Mr. Landis also made these same statements about Mr. Armstrong’s doping tofederal law enforcement officials during their investigation of criminal activity inconnection with the USPS cycling team. As a consequence, his statements about Mr.Armstrong’s doping carried potential criminal penalties, including potential jail time, if they turned out to be falseMoreover, Mr. Landis’s testimony has been significantly corroborated by the testimonyof many other witnesses. Christian Vande Velde, David Zabriskie, Michael Barry and LeviLeipheimer all testify that long before Floyd Landis tested positive, and while he was stillcompeting in cycling, Landis shared the same accounts about Lance Armstrong’s doping that hehas more recently provided to USADA and to federal law enforcement officials.
66
Moreover,Floyd Landis’s description of Lance Armstrong’s doping is highly consistent with the testimonyof other individuals with firsthand knowledge of Mr. Armstrong’s anti-doping rule violationssuch as George Hincapie, Christian Vande Velde, Tyler Hamilton, and Jonathan Vaughters.USADA concludes that these factors combine to make Floyd Landis’s account of Mr.Armstrong’s doping highly credible.
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