WOW...Utter BS

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tayken
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WOW...Utter BS

Postby tayken » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:49 am

Taking things a bit too far....I mean do all men that run earn more wages than women that run? Organizers also need to get away from all this segregation of women's only races. Imagine is there was a men' only half or full :roll:

The Des Moines Women’s Half-Marathon, which is now sold out in its general registration category, charged men 23 per cent more than women for registration. The first annual event in Iowa’s most populous city and capital is set for May 7.

The Des Moines Women’s Half-Marathon posted the following notice on its website, which has since been taken down. (The statement, however, appears on a cached version of the page.) Race organizers cite that the difference in fees was meant to reflect “the current wage inequality between men and women.”


http://runningmagazine.ca/2017-des-moin ... athon-fee/
On the books for 2017

Winterman 10km - (1st in age group) - Feb 19,
Chilly Half Marathon - Mar 5 (Done)
Around the bay 30k - Mar 26, (Done)
Limestone 1/2 - Apr 30,
Ottawa race weekend Voyager Challenge - May 27-28,
Spring Fling Toronto - June?
World Record Kilt Run Perth - June 24
Foam Fest 5k Ottawa - Jul 22
Pure Protein Night Race - Aug 12
Army Run Vimy Challenge - Sep 17
Marathon Du P'tit Train Du Nord Quebec - Oct 22

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Re: WOW...Utter BS

Postby deerdree » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:13 am

Disclaimer, I'm on the bus and haven't read the full article yet, so my comment is based on the snippet you provided...

This is an interesting concept. While it's true that all men who run don't earn higher wages, we see these sorts of discounts in other areas of life (student discount, seniors discount) where people traditionally earn lower wages. As someone who was a 'student' until she was 33, I've seen all sorts of people taking advantage of student discounts who were earning above the average individual income - even for running races (the Nike women's half comes to mind).

Anyway, interesting! I'm not sure if I agree or disagree. Part of me thinks that women have been paying more for hair cuts and dry cleaning for years, so this is a nice treat. :lol:

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Re: WOW...Utter BS

Postby Spirit Unleashed » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:27 am

Here is a bit more of a quote from the link above:

“Our mission in hosting a women’s specific event is to highlight powerful, determined and awesome women, and to show the power [of] the community in progressing a movement. We know that there are men amongst us who support this progress as well and therefore we have decided to allow a limited number of male registrations to the event.

However, we have chosen to adjust our male registration by 23 per cent to reflect the current wage inequality between men and women in the State of Iowa. Men who choose to sign up will therefore be considered an advocate of our movement and will be welcomed at the event with open arms.

The 23 per cent cost difference will be given to a Des Moines based women’s empowerment initiative.”


The option to charge men more has now been eliminated. Boooo! Women should stand up for our selves, make noise, make public the inequality, let the men howl! This is no different than holding a demonstration for your cause.

I don't know about wages in my company, but I do see some young women not having the greatest opportunity even though I know they are an outstanding competent engineer and very smart person.

(I am a woman who makes more than 90% of the population so I'm not complaining about money).
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Re: WOW...Utter BS

Postby eme » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:09 am

Honestly, I think this is a stupid way to make their point.

I have worked my entire career in a male dominated environment (military) and have face challenges as a woman (male boss harassing me on a daily basis).

I believe that everyone should have the same opportunities (and compensation for the same work done), but charging someone more for a race due to their sex, just to get your point across is wrong (not to mention discriminatory).

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Re: WOW...Utter BS

Postby IronColl » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:36 am

Maybe make the males run an extra 23% to get the same swag?
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tayken
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Re: WOW...Utter BS

Postby tayken » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:42 am

Hmmm...some interesting responses so far, but I don't see how women paying more for haircut plays into this....who are the people doing the cutting usually? Yes female barbers and hairdressers :wink:

I can fathom how anyone who believes in equality or is an advocate for it, can say this nonsense in the article makes an iota of sense :roll: I'll take this further and say qualifying times for races like Boston should be the same for both genders, as opposed to the 30mins window. There are a lot of females that run faster than women, so not all Boston qualifiers are created equal.

What next...charge visible minorities more to run a race because chances are that a Black person will win????? Freaking 23%, why not just go for 50% :roll:

Again, women only races is doing absolutely f'all for advancing the sport of long distance running. The organizers are just using it as a ploy to make money and make it seem like they care about feminism.
On the books for 2017

Winterman 10km - (1st in age group) - Feb 19,
Chilly Half Marathon - Mar 5 (Done)
Around the bay 30k - Mar 26, (Done)
Limestone 1/2 - Apr 30,
Ottawa race weekend Voyager Challenge - May 27-28,
Spring Fling Toronto - June?
World Record Kilt Run Perth - June 24
Foam Fest 5k Ottawa - Jul 22
Pure Protein Night Race - Aug 12
Army Run Vimy Challenge - Sep 17
Marathon Du P'tit Train Du Nord Quebec - Oct 22

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Re: WOW...Utter BS

Postby deerdree » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:53 am

tayken wrote:Hmmm...some interesting responses so far, but I don't see how women paying more for haircut plays into this....who are the people doing the cutting usually? Yes female barbers and hairdressers :wink:

it's relevant because you would think that men and women would pay the same amount for the same product or services, but countless examples show that they don't (i don't really think the gender of the hairdresser is relevant). just as you would think that men and women doing the same work would be paid the same, but they aren't. this is just another example in a long list.

this is framed as charging men more, but could just as easily be seen as giving a discount to women. and i'm asking, why would student discounts in running races be okay if this isn't? what's the justification for giving student discounts - because they typically (at the population level) have lower income? isn't that the same here?

again, i'm not saying i agree with this, i just don't think it's unfathomable.

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Re: WOW...Utter BS

Postby deerdree » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:55 am

tayken wrote:The organizers are just using it as a ploy to make money and make it seem like they care about feminism.

a ploy to make money? one could argue that this would deter men from running the race, and there is a ton of competition for running races for them to choose from, so it seems like a bad strategy.

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Re: WOW...Utter BS

Postby tayken » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:02 am

...there are countless jobs were wages are transparent, and men and women do indeed get paid the same, because there is a table that shows a scale, years of employment and where a person is at.

As for the student discount thing, probably the same reason for giving adult discounts? I mean not all seniors paid into the pension pot, but for some reason feel entitled to claim senior discounts / have entitlement issues similar to teenagers. Some seniors are loaded from having worked hard and saved up...they don't really need discounts.

Note: I am truly and sincerely for equality, and it irks me when the people crying wolf, pick and choose to suit their agenda. Ideally, men and women in all professions will get paid the same, and qualifying times for races will be the same for both genders. You can't make the qualifying time...work harder

deerdree wrote:
tayken wrote:Hmmm...some interesting responses so far, but I don't see how women paying more for haircut plays into this....who are the people doing the cutting usually? Yes female barbers and hairdressers :wink:

it's relevant because you would think that men and women would pay the same amount for the same product or services, but countless examples show that they don't (i don't really think the gender of the hairdresser is relevant). just as you would think that men and women doing the same work would be paid the same, but they aren't. this is just another example in a long list.

this is framed as charging men more, but could just as easily be seen as giving a discount to women. and i'm asking, why would student discounts in running races be okay if this isn't? what's the justification for giving student discounts - because they typically (at the population level) have lower income? isn't that the same here?

again, i'm not saying i agree with this, i just don't think it's unfathomable.
On the books for 2017

Winterman 10km - (1st in age group) - Feb 19,
Chilly Half Marathon - Mar 5 (Done)
Around the bay 30k - Mar 26, (Done)
Limestone 1/2 - Apr 30,
Ottawa race weekend Voyager Challenge - May 27-28,
Spring Fling Toronto - June?
World Record Kilt Run Perth - June 24
Foam Fest 5k Ottawa - Jul 22
Pure Protein Night Race - Aug 12
Army Run Vimy Challenge - Sep 17
Marathon Du P'tit Train Du Nord Quebec - Oct 22

tayken
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Re: WOW...Utter BS

Postby tayken » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:05 am

I have been in races where the number of female registrants have been higher than the male. If someone really has self esteem issues and think by running with men is an issue, then perhaps they should work on their persona first before deciding to enter a race. I doubt anyone is checking anyone out during a race...not like it's a meat market (club, bar, etc)

deerdree wrote:
tayken wrote:The organizers are just using it as a ploy to make money and make it seem like they care about feminism.

a ploy to make money? one could argue that this would deter men from running the race, and there is a ton of competition for running races for them to choose from, so it seems like a bad strategy.
On the books for 2017

Winterman 10km - (1st in age group) - Feb 19,
Chilly Half Marathon - Mar 5 (Done)
Around the bay 30k - Mar 26, (Done)
Limestone 1/2 - Apr 30,
Ottawa race weekend Voyager Challenge - May 27-28,
Spring Fling Toronto - June?
World Record Kilt Run Perth - June 24
Foam Fest 5k Ottawa - Jul 22
Pure Protein Night Race - Aug 12
Army Run Vimy Challenge - Sep 17
Marathon Du P'tit Train Du Nord Quebec - Oct 22

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Re: WOW...Utter BS

Postby Jwolf » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:17 am

tayken wrote:Note: I am truly and sincerely for equality, and it irks me when the people crying wolf, pick and choose to suit their agenda. Ideally, men and women in all professions will get paid the same, and qualifying times for races will be the same for both genders. You can't make the qualifying time...work harder


Equality is not the same thing as equity.

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Re: WOW...Utter BS

Postby tayken » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:20 am

Thanks for stating the obvious! Like I said, with their rationale in the article, perhaps visible minorities should be charged less as Caucasians earn more. Along the same line as your rationale?

Jwolf wrote:
tayken wrote:Note: I am truly and sincerely for equality, and it irks me when the people crying wolf, pick and choose to suit their agenda. Ideally, men and women in all professions will get paid the same, and qualifying times for races will be the same for both genders. You can't make the qualifying time...work harder


Equality is not the same thing as equity.

Last edited by tayken on Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
On the books for 2017

Winterman 10km - (1st in age group) - Feb 19,
Chilly Half Marathon - Mar 5 (Done)
Around the bay 30k - Mar 26, (Done)
Limestone 1/2 - Apr 30,
Ottawa race weekend Voyager Challenge - May 27-28,
Spring Fling Toronto - June?
World Record Kilt Run Perth - June 24
Foam Fest 5k Ottawa - Jul 22
Pure Protein Night Race - Aug 12
Army Run Vimy Challenge - Sep 17
Marathon Du P'tit Train Du Nord Quebec - Oct 22

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Re: WOW...Utter BS

Postby IronColl » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:20 am

Women will physiologically never be as fast as men. The BQ times reflect this discrepancy.
If all that you read is everything you believe then let go, then let go, then let go.

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Re: WOW...Utter BS

Postby tayken » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:23 am

Yet...many outrun men their age, younger and older. Lanni is a mother and still manages to kick some asphalt

IronColl wrote:Women will physiologically never be as fast as men. The BQ times reflect this discrepancy.
On the books for 2017

Winterman 10km - (1st in age group) - Feb 19,
Chilly Half Marathon - Mar 5 (Done)
Around the bay 30k - Mar 26, (Done)
Limestone 1/2 - Apr 30,
Ottawa race weekend Voyager Challenge - May 27-28,
Spring Fling Toronto - June?
World Record Kilt Run Perth - June 24
Foam Fest 5k Ottawa - Jul 22
Pure Protein Night Race - Aug 12
Army Run Vimy Challenge - Sep 17
Marathon Du P'tit Train Du Nord Quebec - Oct 22

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Re: WOW...Utter BS

Postby IronColl » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:27 am

tayken wrote:Yet...many outrun men their age, younger and older. Lanni is a mother and still manages to kick some asphalt

IronColl wrote:Women will physiologically never be as fast as men. The BQ times reflect this discrepancy.


Faster women are faster than a higher proportion of women then men. Lanni may be faster than 99% of the women, but only 80% of the men. Physiology.
If all that you read is everything you believe then let go, then let go, then let go.

Nothing will change if you never choose.

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Re: WOW...Utter BS

Postby tayken » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:30 am

So 30mins discrepancy is justified and is helping improving the status quo, along with women only races????

Might as well make it a 1hr cushion then ...that way more females qualify and can be proud of a dumb down.

IronColl wrote:
tayken wrote:Yet...many outrun men their age, younger and older. Lanni is a mother and still manages to kick some asphalt

IronColl wrote:Women will physiologically never be as fast as men. The BQ times reflect this discrepancy.


Faster women are faster than a higher proportion of women then men. Lanni may be faster than 99% of the women, but only 80% of the men. Physiology.
On the books for 2017

Winterman 10km - (1st in age group) - Feb 19,
Chilly Half Marathon - Mar 5 (Done)
Around the bay 30k - Mar 26, (Done)
Limestone 1/2 - Apr 30,
Ottawa race weekend Voyager Challenge - May 27-28,
Spring Fling Toronto - June?
World Record Kilt Run Perth - June 24
Foam Fest 5k Ottawa - Jul 22
Pure Protein Night Race - Aug 12
Army Run Vimy Challenge - Sep 17
Marathon Du P'tit Train Du Nord Quebec - Oct 22

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Re: WOW...Utter BS

Postby IronColl » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:50 am

tayken wrote:So 30mins discrepancy is justified and is helping improving the status quo, along with women only races????

Might as well make it a 1hr cushion then ...that way more females qualify and can be proud of a dumb down.

IronColl wrote:
tayken wrote:Yet...many outrun men their age, younger and older. Lanni is a mother and still manages to kick some asphalt

IronColl wrote:Women will physiologically never be as fast as men. The BQ times reflect this discrepancy.


Faster women are faster than a higher proportion of women then men. Lanni may be faster than 99% of the women, but only 80% of the men. Physiology.


Do your research to find why they are the differences they are. The information is there.
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Re: WOW...Utter BS

Postby deerdree » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:55 am

tayken wrote:I have been in races where the number of female registrants have been higher than the male. If someone really has self esteem issues and think by running with men is an issue, then perhaps they should work on their persona first before deciding to enter a race. I doubt anyone is checking anyone out during a race...not like it's a meat market (club, bar, etc)

deerdree wrote:
tayken wrote:The organizers are just using it as a ploy to make money and make it seem like they care about feminism.

a ploy to make money? one could argue that this would deter men from running the race, and there is a ton of competition for running races for them to choose from, so it seems like a bad strategy.

I'm not sure how this is in response to what I wrote above. I'm not making the case for women's-only races or debating their merits. I was just saying that charging men more to make more money doesn't make much sense to me because usually charging someone more for something incentivizes them not to do or buy that thing. So if you told me that a race was charging men more than women, my first guess would be that fewer men would run. Especially since there are other races available. Not that the race would end up making more money.

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Re: WOW...Utter BS

Postby Jwolf » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:00 pm

tayken wrote: I'll take this further and say qualifying times for races like Boston should be the same for both genders, as opposed to the 30mins window. There are a lot of females that run faster than women, so not all Boston qualifiers are created equal.


When you become race director, you can make the decisions based on your arbitrary criteria.

Your argument that there should be the same (EQUAL) qualifying time for men and women ignores some obvious physiological and practical truths. If you are starting from that point, I'm not sure you can really participate in a valid discussion. But briefly:

Boston used to have just one qualifying time across all ages and genders. This was back when the demand wasn't nearly as high for the race (and the concept of striving for a BQ as a valid bar for all runners to gauge your athletic performance didn't really exist in the same way). As the race became more popular, the RD's realized that they wanted the qualifying times to be more EQUITABLE to have a good diversity of runners across all age groups and genders. The qualifying times have evolved over the years.

The current 30-minute difference in qualifying times based on a combination of factors-- age-graded calculators, historical registrations, and their desire to keep a good balance between men and women in their race. It's not a perfect calculation (for some age groups 30 minutes might be considered too high, for others too low), but it's what they have decided on for various reasons.

Here's an article with arguments based on science if you care to read. (This article discusses mostly statistics, not the actual physiology-- but that's out there too.)

http://sciencebasedrunning.com/2015/10/ ... o-qualify/
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Re: WOW...Utter BS

Postby deerdree » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:33 pm

deerdree wrote:
tayken wrote:I have been in races where the number of female registrants have been higher than the male. If someone really has self esteem issues and think by running with men is an issue, then perhaps they should work on their persona first before deciding to enter a race. I doubt anyone is checking anyone out during a race...not like it's a meat market (club, bar, etc)

deerdree wrote:
tayken wrote:The organizers are just using it as a ploy to make money and make it seem like they care about feminism.

a ploy to make money? one could argue that this would deter men from running the race, and there is a ton of competition for running races for them to choose from, so it seems like a bad strategy.

I'm not sure how this is in response to what I wrote above. I'm not making the case for women's-only races or debating their merits. I was just saying that charging men more to make more money doesn't make much sense to me because usually charging someone more for something incentivizes them not to do or buy that thing. So if you told me that a race was charging men more than women, my first guess would be that fewer men would run. Especially since there are other races available. Not that the race would end up making more money.

oh, tayken, i have to apologize - i was replying to this from my phone during a meeting, so not following the thread as closely as i should have. i see now that i took your line out of context - thinking you were talking about the difference in registration fees, when really you were talking about women's only races being a ploy for money. in that case, i agree with you! but hey, it's a business, and if there's a market for it, i don't fault them for taking advantage. we've had this same discussion in the past about women-only gyms.

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Re: WOW...Utter BS

Postby tayken » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:40 pm

That's OK...it's not the first time that knee-jerk reaction response has happened on here since I joined, and it probably won't be the last. I'm glad to see that we concur on the silliness of the gender biased races. It's no surprise that women only gym don't last and end up closing down. Always sounds like a good idea at first, but then the patrons realize that they will rather be elsewhere where they can sometimes get the attention they crave.

deerdree wrote:
deerdree wrote:
tayken wrote:I have been in races where the number of female registrants have been higher than the male. If someone really has self esteem issues and think by running with men is an issue, then perhaps they should work on their persona first before deciding to enter a race. I doubt anyone is checking anyone out during a race...not like it's a meat market (club, bar, etc)

deerdree wrote:
tayken wrote:The organizers are just using it as a ploy to make money and make it seem like they care about feminism.

a ploy to make money? one could argue that this would deter men from running the race, and there is a ton of competition for running races for them to choose from, so it seems like a bad strategy.

I'm not sure how this is in response to what I wrote above. I'm not making the case for women's-only races or debating their merits. I was just saying that charging men more to make more money doesn't make much sense to me because usually charging someone more for something incentivizes them not to do or buy that thing. So if you told me that a race was charging men more than women, my first guess would be that fewer men would run. Especially since there are other races available. Not that the race would end up making more money.

oh, tayken, i have to apologize - i was replying to this from my phone during a meeting, so not following the thread as closely as i should have. i see now that i took your line out of context - thinking you were talking about the difference in registration fees, when really you were talking about women's only races being a ploy for money. in that case, i agree with you! but hey, it's a business, and if there's a market for it, i don't fault them for taking advantage. we've had this same discussion in the past about women-only gyms.
On the books for 2017

Winterman 10km - (1st in age group) - Feb 19,
Chilly Half Marathon - Mar 5 (Done)
Around the bay 30k - Mar 26, (Done)
Limestone 1/2 - Apr 30,
Ottawa race weekend Voyager Challenge - May 27-28,
Spring Fling Toronto - June?
World Record Kilt Run Perth - June 24
Foam Fest 5k Ottawa - Jul 22
Pure Protein Night Race - Aug 12
Army Run Vimy Challenge - Sep 17
Marathon Du P'tit Train Du Nord Quebec - Oct 22

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Re: WOW...Utter BS

Postby deerdree » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:57 pm

Just to clarify - I don't think they're necessarily silly, I just think there's a market for them and so it would be inherently money-driven. "Ploy" is probably a bit pejorative for what I'm trying to say - but demand and money are surely factors. If women didn't want them and races were losing money by hosting them, they wouldn't continue.

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Re: WOW...Utter BS

Postby tayken » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:52 pm

...are women asking for female only races, or is it an assumption / ploy on the part of the organizers? I get demand-supply aspect, how low self-esteem might drive some to only run in those races. I mean this is apparent when it comes to gyms e.g. good life fitness v gym that caters to plus size clientel
On the books for 2017

Winterman 10km - (1st in age group) - Feb 19,
Chilly Half Marathon - Mar 5 (Done)
Around the bay 30k - Mar 26, (Done)
Limestone 1/2 - Apr 30,
Ottawa race weekend Voyager Challenge - May 27-28,
Spring Fling Toronto - June?
World Record Kilt Run Perth - June 24
Foam Fest 5k Ottawa - Jul 22
Pure Protein Night Race - Aug 12
Army Run Vimy Challenge - Sep 17
Marathon Du P'tit Train Du Nord Quebec - Oct 22

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Re: WOW...Utter BS

Postby barebuns1 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:11 pm

I have to agree with the concept that if you want to run in a women's race, then you as a male should pay more. Simply because it is a women's race. No difference if a woman wanted to run in a men's race, she should be charged more. I agree with Tayken that gender separated races are foolish. I am wondering if that stupid rule concerning world records are still in effect. A women's world record will only count in women's only races?


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Re: WOW...Utter BS

Postby ultraslacker » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:32 pm

tayken wrote:...are women asking for female only races, or is it an assumption / ploy on the part of the organizers? I get demand-supply aspect, how low self-esteem might drive some to only run in those races. I mean this is apparent when it comes to gyms e.g. good life fitness v gym that caters to plus size clientel


I think you're making some pretty big assumptions (and awfully judgmental ones at that) about why some women might prefer women's only gyms and/or women's only sections of gyms. Instead of making these kinds of assumptions, why not ask around and find out what the various reasons are behind it?

There is nothing wrong with having a preference, whether that preference matches yours or mine.

I personally prefer co-ed gyms and races, but I don't fault women who prefer women's only ones.
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