speed methods discussion (split from favourite track workouts)

[MichaelMc]

For those focused on getting the most out of their speedwork, a clear objective is the key. "Get faster" isn't enough, because (for example) MANY marathoners can "get faster" by just starting their marathon at a slower pace, thus fading less at the end yielding a big time improvement. Others might need to start out FASTER... . What you need to decide is what physical factor you are attempting to improve, what type of workout hits it best, and how to test if you're accomplishing anything.

The traditional (Daniels) breakdown is this:

1) For Running form/ Power /co-ordination the best exercise is "repeats". Short (<90 second) efforts, virtually all-out (still hold good form, must be able to complete full set). The breaks between the set are LONG: you should recover FULLY: up to twice as long break as effort (1.5 is normal). You are teaching your body to run FAST.

2) For VO2 max, "Intervals". Traditionally medium length effort (90 seconds - 6 minutes), HIGH effort (HR ~98% of max), medium length recovery (approx same length as effort). Others (eg. Billat) have demonstrated there are other ways to attack VO2 max, using shorter effort and recovery. Same principle applies though. You are teaching your body to MOVE OXYGEN

3) "Lactate threshold": threshold runs (Tempo, cruise intervals). Medium effort level ("comfortably hard"), longer effort time, shorter recovery. Normally 10-40 minute efforts, though some people are stretching and reducing the effort these days. You are teaching your body to HANDLE LACTATE (more or less, big technical argument here). Many variations possible.

4) "Race pace": running at or near goal pace. The idea is to teach your body to run exactly "X" pace efficiently. Speed and duration depends on what race you're training for.

5) "Easy/recovery" pace: a speed designed to allow distance running adaptations while minimizing the physical stress.

There are endless variations, but any workout that is designed to be more than just "fun" needs to be aimed at improving SOMETHING.

[bruyere]

For those focused on getting the most out of their speedwork, a clear objective is the key. "Get faster" isn't enough, because (for example) MANY marathoners can "get faster" by just starting their marathon at a slower pace, thus fading less at the end yielding a big time improvement. Others might need to start out FASTER... . What you need to decide is what physical factor you are attempting to improve, what type of workout hits it best, and how to test if you're accomplishing anything.

The traditional (Daniels) breakdown is this:

1) For Running form/ Power /co-ordination the best exercise is "repeats". Short (<90 second) efforts, virtually all-out (still hold good form, must be able to complete full set). The breaks between the set are LONG: you should recover FULLY: up to twice as long break as effort (1.5 is normal). You are teaching your body to run FAST.

2) For VO2 max, "Intervals". Traditionally medium length effort (90 seconds - 6 minutes), HIGH effort (HR ~98% of max), medium length recovery (approx same length as effort). Others (eg. Billat) have demonstrated there are other ways to attack VO2 max, using shorter effort and recovery. Same principle applies though. You are teaching your body to MOVE OXYGEN

3) "Lactate threshold": threshold runs (Tempo, cruise intervals). Medium effort level ("comfortably hard"), longer effort time, shorter recovery. Normally 10-40 minute efforts, though some people are stretching and reducing the effort these days. You are teaching your body to HANDLE LACTATE (more or less, big technical argument here). Many variations possible.

4) "Race pace": running at or near goal pace. The idea is to teach your body to run exactly "X" pace efficiently. Speed and duration depends on what race you're training for.

5) "Easy/recovery" pace: a speed designed to allow distance running adaptations while minimizing the physical stress.

There are endless variations, but any workout that is designed to be more than just "fun" needs to be aimed at improving SOMETHING.

Thanks for that! I think I can identify in there the workouts that I've been assigned.

[ultraslacker]

For those focused on getting the most out of their speedwork, a clear objective is the key. "Get faster" isn't enough, because (for example) MANY marathoners can "get faster" by just starting their marathon at a slower pace, thus fading less at the end yielding a big time improvement. Others might need to start out FASTER... . What you need to decide is what physical factor you are attempting to improve, what type of workout hits it best, and how to test if you're accomplishing anything.

The traditional (Daniels) breakdown is this:

1) For Running form/ Power /co-ordination the best exercise is "repeats". Short (<90 second) efforts, virtually all-out (still hold good form, must be able to complete full set). The breaks between the set are LONG: you should recover FULLY: up to twice as long break as effort (1.5 is normal). You are teaching your body to run FAST.

2) For VO2 max, "Intervals". Traditionally medium length effort (90 seconds - 6 minutes), HIGH effort (HR ~98% of max), medium length recovery (approx same length as effort). Others (eg. Billat) have demonstrated there are other ways to attack VO2 max, using shorter effort and recovery. Same principle applies though. You are teaching your body to MOVE OXYGEN

3) "Lactate threshold": threshold runs (Tempo, cruise intervals). Medium effort level ("comfortably hard"), longer effort time, shorter recovery. Normally 10-40 minute efforts, though some people are stretching and reducing the effort these days. You are teaching your body to HANDLE LACTATE (more or less, big technical argument here). Many variations possible.

4) "Race pace": running at or near goal pace. The idea is to teach your body to run exactly "X" pace efficiently. Speed and duration depends on what race you're training for.

5) "Easy/recovery" pace: a speed designed to allow distance running adaptations while minimizing the physical stress.

There are endless variations, but any workout that is designed to be more than just "fun" needs to be aimed at improving SOMETHING.

That post deserves its own thread. My question on it would be: without a coach, how does the average runner know which of these areas they most need to work on? Is it process of elimination based on areas of weakness in races already run? Is it usually a mix of all of the methods? Depends largely on goals?

[babysteps]

For those focused on getting the most out of their speedwork, a clear objective is the key. "Get faster" isn't enough, because (for example) MANY marathoners can "get faster" by just starting their marathon at a slower pace, thus fading less at the end yielding a big time improvement. Others might need to start out FASTER... . What you need to decide is what physical factor you are attempting to improve, what type of workout hits it best, and how to test if you're accomplishing anything.

The traditional (Daniels) breakdown is this:

1) For Running form/ Power /co-ordination the best exercise is "repeats". Short (<90 second) efforts, virtually all-out (still hold good form, must be able to complete full set). The breaks between the set are LONG: you should recover FULLY: up to twice as long break as effort (1.5 is normal). You are teaching your body to run FAST.

2) For VO2 max, "Intervals". Traditionally medium length effort (90 seconds - 6 minutes), HIGH effort (HR ~98% of max), medium length recovery (approx same length as effort). Others (eg. Billat) have demonstrated there are other ways to attack VO2 max, using shorter effort and recovery. Same principle applies though. You are teaching your body to MOVE OXYGEN

3) "Lactate threshold": threshold runs (Tempo, cruise intervals). Medium effort level ("comfortably hard"), longer effort time, shorter recovery. Normally 10-40 minute efforts, though some people are stretching and reducing the effort these days. You are teaching your body to HANDLE LACTATE (more or less, big technical argument here). Many variations possible.

4) "Race pace": running at or near goal pace. The idea is to teach your body to run exactly "X" pace efficiently. Speed and duration depends on what race you're training for.

5) "Easy/recovery" pace: a speed designed to allow distance running adaptations while minimizing the physical stress.

There are endless variations, but any workout that is designed to be more than just "fun" needs to be aimed at improving SOMETHING.

That post deserves its own thread. My question on it would be: without a coach, how does the average runner know which of these areas they most need to work on? Is it process of elimination based on areas of weakness in races already run? Is it usually a mix of all of the methods? Depends largely on goals?

I love this question and this outline! Please do start a new thread!!

I was thinking the other day that it's been a long time since we've had a discussion like this. It's the kind of thread that I would love to refer new runners to (and to read myself too.)

[ultraslacker]

I'll split it out.

[ultraslacker]

I love this question and this outline! Please do start a new thread!!

I was thinking the other day that it's been a long time since we've had a discussion like this. It's the kind of thread that I would love to refer new runners to (and to read myself too.)

Apparently you and I are the only ones interested in that question, lol!

[La]

I love this question and this outline! Please do start a new thread!!

I was thinking the other day that it's been a long time since we've had a discussion like this. It's the kind of thread that I would love to refer new runners to (and to read myself too.)

Apparently you and I are the only ones interested in that question, lol!

I'm interested. Michael's post explains the different types of workouts, but what I'd like to know is how do you know which you should be working on (LT, V02Max, Power, Race Pace)?

I think I get the purpose of Power/Form and Race Pace, but the other two I'm kind of puzzled about. I have no idea of my V02Max or how improving it would help me. I do understand LT a bit more, so I tend to focus on those types of workouts the most.

[Pat Menzies]

I don't think it matters what type of runner you are or how long you've been running. You need to work on all those aspects if you're interested in becoming a balanced athlete.
There is considerable overlap in all the zones listed by Michael. Each of them relates to the others to some degree(some more than others) and they are nearly guaranteed to actually be some race pace even if you don't actively choose to race that particular distance.
If you do a little bit of #1 and an even amount of #2 and #3, number #4 is going to be taken care of anyway.
As a new runner it is tempting to think you are "strong" in one area and can now focus on other aspects. That probably isn't actually the case and it would be wise to keep working on your perceived strength because that is the area where you will likely make the most gains ultimately.

[Jwolf]

Good answer, Pat. I was going to try to answer, but you already said it better.

I also liked what you said in the other thread, which relates more to this question than the apparent purpose of that thread:

The best all around training paces are repeats geared to the 5km and tempos at half pace. Everything else will fall into place if you do nothing but those two zones.
1200's at 5km pace are good but you could probably push a bit harder and take longer recoveries. if you want to get faster in pace you need to give yourself a bit of a rest edge so you can keep the pace where you want it. Then you can reduce the recovery as you get comfortable with the faster pace.
A faster 5km speed will drop your half time and that sets you up for a faster Marathon.

1200's at 5K pace are probably too long for slower runners; I'd limit those repeats to no longer than 4:00. For a slower runner that would be more like 800's.

[BaldGuy]

I love this question and this outline! Please do start a new thread!!

I was thinking the other day that it's been a long time since we've had a discussion like this. It's the kind of thread that I would love to refer new runners to (and to read myself too.)

Apparently you and I are the only ones interested in that question, lol!

[delurk]
Nope, I'm interested too. It's helpful to see all this in one place. And as an experience novice, it's a useful discussion to watch. I don't know enough about any of it to comment, but I want to know.
[/delurk]

[Garrett]

As a new runner it is tempting to think you are "strong" in one area and can now focus on other aspects. That probably isn't actually the case and it would be wise to keep working on your perceived strength because that is the area where you will likely make the most gains ultimately.

Can you give an example?

[seuss]

how does one know when they have built "enough" of a base to start speedwork? i am fairly certain i don't.

*seuss wonders what the heck she is doing in the speed zone*

[MichaelMc]

Aha, I thought my post had gotten lost in cyberspace Glad to see others chiming in, as one single perspective can easily come across like everything is "black and white", when it isn't.

How do you know which one you need to work on?

The easy answer is we all need to work on all of them to some degree; a complete training program really should have elements of each SOMEWHERE in it. I think it is a good thing for a runner to know their relative weak points, though.

The most accurate way to figure out where you're at is getting your VO2 max tested. You can get blood lactate tested at the same time, but frankly a good VO2 max test will give you a pretty darn close estimate of LT without blood testing. Lacking a test, you can probably pick out your weak points if you've raced various distances, especially if you've worn a heart rate monitor and know your max heart rate. Comparing to others with similar race times in a given distance will give you a strong indication.

Sprinters don't need especially good oxygen delivery, so we'll leave those speedsters out of it. Race distances of 400m through mile are HIGHLY VO2 max demanding, but short enough that lactate threshold is less of a limiting factor (depending on your speed). As race distances stretch 3k-10 mile, LT becomes more and more important. In the marathon, endurance trumps both. SO if compared to similar runners you are better in 800m and mile, odds are you have a relatively good VO2 max. If you struggle a bit there, but can go PRETTY fast for quite a long time then you have a relatively better LT. If you don't start kicking butt until everyone else fades away past the Half marathon, then compared to others you are STRONG, but may not have great oxygen delivery. Does one of those sound like you?

As Pat and Jennifer have said, all factors influence all other factors. Increasing your VO2 max (oxygen processed) is a good thing for everyone, as this is limit on how much aerobic energy your system can produce. The problem with concentrating too much on that is 1) there is a huge genetic component to this 2) gains from training it flatten out pretty quickly 3) age erodes it relatively quickly. Lactate threshold is as a percentage of VO2 max, it tells you what PERCENTAGE of your VO2 max you can use for long periods of time. If your VO2 max comes up, then in effect it also raises the pace your LT kicks in at. The nice thing about LT is although it responds to training slower than VO2 max, it carries on responding to training for a long, long time. So even if your VO2 max remains stagnant you can carry MORE of that speed for a long time and continue to improve your race times. Since it is a percentage it HAS an upper limit (<100%), but no one has threatened it yet.

Efficiency is the "wild card". We've talked about how much oxygen you can process, and what percentage of that limit you can continue to process for long periods, but how much oxygen do you NEED to run "x" speed? This is efficiency. Getting the most speed or distance out of the available energy is really the object on race day. It is a complex factor, though and both HIGH SPEED SHORT DISTANCE and LOW SPEED LONG DISTANCE running contribute. Repeats have shown the best SHORT TERM improvements in efficiency, and it makes sense because when you are at near top speed any wasted movement has an exaggerated effect. Furthermore, dense powerful muscles and efficient co-ordinated movement are required. Long distance training contributes on the other end, with endless repeated movements encouraging both co-ordination and the re-making of the body into a machine that is designed to run: you are what you do. There is an element of 'specificity' as well: running 'x' speed makes you more efficient at THAT speed (so race-specific efficiency).

So yes, you need to run a variety of runs to be a balanced runner. What I'd like, however, is for runners to be able to look at workouts and think "what is that supposed to work on?" and evaluate whether it makes sense that it WOULD, and perhaps WHO should be doing it and WHEN. If you are working on VO2 max, do you want short efforts with really long breaks between sets? No, because it takes a while to GET to VO2 max, and the more you rest the longer it takes to get BACK to it. Should you do mile repeats or 800m repeats if you want to hit VO2 max? Well if it takes you 7+ minutes to do a mile, then that is too long because you'll tire and LT will slow you (making it a poor VO2 workout): you should do 1200m or 1000m, for example.

Looking back at the workouts, we can see WHY they are what they are.

Repeats: power efficiency you want to be fully rested and crank them out short, hard and fast, then rest completely BECAUSE the form & speed is critical (oxygen isn't)

Interval (VO2 max) you want to force your body to process as much OXYGEN as possible. You have to use up the oxygen in your blood forcing your lungs, heart and circulatory system into overdrive. To maximize the oxygen demand you need it to be LONG enough you can't do it anaerobically, but not so long that lactate threshold becomes the limit. You want to rest long enough to lower the lactate and get the energy to go again, but the sooner you go, the quicker you get BACK to VO2 max.

Threshold: you want to force your body to clear the maximum amount of lactate. It has to be fast enough to put LOADS of lactate into your blood, slow enough to maintain for sufficient time.

Long/easy runs: you don't care about oxygen or lactate because you're going too LONG to be able to stress these and carry on. You are looking for running distance and time on your feet at the minimum physical cost. This allows you to run more in total.

Race pace: if you have a certain REALISTIC goal pace, time running AT that speed will make you better at running THAT speed.

Knowing theory CAN help evaluate workouts. Now for extra credit, what do Yasso 800's work?

[b_squared]

Thanks for taking the time to type that all out MichaelMc!

[babysteps]

*seuss wonders what the heck she is doing in the speed zone*

(ssshhhh! I don't think they noticed us! )

[babysteps]

Thanks for taking the time to type that all out MichaelMc!

No kidding! I'm going to read this again after the kids go to bed and I can really take it in.

[La]

Looking back at the workouts, we can see WHY they are what they are.

Repeats: power efficiency you want to be fully rested and crank them out short, hard and fast, then rest completely BECAUSE the form & speed is critical (oxygen isn't)

Interval (VO2 max) you want to force your body to process as much OXYGEN as possible. You have to use up the oxygen in your blood forcing your lungs, heart and circulatory system into overdrive. To maximize the oxygen demand you need it to be LONG enough you can't do it anaerobically, but not so long that lactate threshold becomes the limit. You want to rest long enough to lower the lactate and get the energy to go again, but the sooner you go, the quicker you get BACK to VO2 max.

Threshold: you want to force your body to clear the maximum amount of lactate. It has to be fast enough to put LOADS of lactate into your blood, slow enough to maintain for sufficient time.

Long/easy runs: you don't care about oxygen or lactate because you're going too LONG to be able to stress these and carry on. You are looking for running distance and time on your feet at the minimum physical cost. This allows you to run more in total.

Race pace: if you have a certain REALISTIC goal pace, time running AT that speed will make you better at running THAT speed.

AWESOME summary! Thanks!

[Andes]

MichaelMc, that was a great summary. So I know now why too much recovery between VO2max intervals is a bad thing, but I'm not sure how much is too much. I usually jog about half the interval distance at a slow pace - does that sound reasonable?

[Jwolf]

MichaelMc, that was a great summary. So I know now why too much recovery between VO2max intervals is a bad thing, but I'm not sure how much is too much. I usually jog about half the interval distance at a slow pace - does that sound reasonable?

Half the interval distance is about right for most people. I like to think about it in terms of time-- about 75% of the time. I usually do an 800m interval in about 3:30-3:45, and then reverse direction and do a slow jog lap on the outside of the track, which takes me about 2:30-3:00. Then repeat.

[Mid_Packer]

Now for extra credit, what do Yasso 800's work?

Ok, I'll take a stab at it.

Yasso's are suppose to be be built up to tehpint where you are doing something like a 12-20 before the big ragce. They are intended to promote running efficiency and given the short duration I'd say they are VO2 Max. Likely not fast enough to be considered anerobic conditioning

How'd I do?
Dave

[Jwolf]

Now for extra credit, what do Yasso 800's work?

Ok, I'll take a stab at it.

Yasso's are suppose to be be built up to tehpint where you are doing something like a 12-20 before the big ragce. They are intended to promote running efficiency and given the short duration I'd say they are VO2 Max. Likely not fast enough to be considered anerobic conditioning

The most I've ever seen recommended is 10 repeats. 20? What planet is that?

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7 ... -0,00.html

The idea is to take your marathon goal time in HH:MM and convert to MM:SS, and that is the time you aim to do an 800m interval. Your recovery is the same time but slower. But they tend to be slower than VO2max intervals and you do more of them (building up to 10 repeats). And the recovery is longer, so I'd say that they aren't really intended to be an optimal VO2max workout.

What I've always heard is that they aren't the most effective workout for training any system, but they get your body used to long workouts at harder than race (marathon) effort. I've never seen the Yasso 800's recommended for other than marathon training.

[ian]

I use Yassos (10x800m, starting every 5 minutes) as a technique & VO2max workout about a week and a half out from a goal marathon. It is one of about a half dozen calibration elements I have for determining a realistic goal pace: in my case, my optimum marathon time is about 5 minutes higher than what the Yassos predict, provided the workout feels hard but not brutal. The catch for me is that I kind of have to estimate the 800m pace first and then confirm that it feels like it should, rather than racing each interval.

[ultraslacker]

Thanks for taking the time to type that all out MichaelMc!

I second the thanks; that is a great explanation and I've never really thought about these things before so it's good fuel for thought. :)

I don't know the answer to the Yasso question but if I think about what my pace would be and how I *used* to run it (2 years ago when I did speedwork!) I'm inclined to put it more in the lactate threshold category... whether my experience matches the intent is another question, lol.

Another question: how are those usually mixed up in a training program? Clearly you're not doing ALL of those every week, so would you cycle through the speedy ones from week to week, or is there another method to that? Or do you put more weight on the ones that fit your goal race best?

Also, where do tempo runs fit in? If I'm training for a marathon then my tempo pace will be faster than marathon pace, but slower than lactate threshold...?

eta: I re-read the first post... it answers my tempo question and the yasso question, lol!

[Garrett]

Aha, I thought my post had gotten...

Thank you for this, it was very helpful.

[Pat Menzies]

Sure you can. Just doing strides can introduce you to # 1. Intervals cover 5km pace. Tempos and cruise intervals cover 10km-half pace.
That eliminates specifically focusing on # 4 and you can add a bit of MP into every second long run.
Tuesday Easy with strides
Wednesday-Intervals
Thursday- Easy
Friday- Tempo or cruise intervals
Saturday- Easy
Sunday- Long
Monday- off