Running Mania

West Grey Runner wrote:Hydration was good, nutrition was maybe not so good ! 30 minutes between Gels was Ok but the last hour or so a 20 minute interval would have been better.

I did a total of 6 GU Roctains that’s 600 Calories. Assuming I am a normal person I have 2400 easy calories to access energy. I figure that I burned about 3800 calories in total so if I am anywhere near correct that an 800 calorie deficit! Drinking Water instead of the Gator Aid may not have been a fatal choice!

West Grey Runner wrote:Thanks Michael

I did hold back in the first half , I could have easily shave 2-3 minutes off but I was really trying to recover the heart rate on the downhill’s. I thinks a more realistic approach would have been a disciplined 5:00 pace for the first ½ , going for a negative 1 minute split and a couple of more gels! Gee, I think I just laid out my Scotia Race Plan ….thanks MichaelMc and Doonst.

The quantity and timing of gels is one of those experimentation things, for sure. Even the skinniest runners has multiple marathons worth of energy stored in fat, but the what percentage of your calorie burn is coming from fat vs glycogen while running varies (partly by speed). How much one can digest while running hard also varies: the harder you are running, the less well your digestive system works. This to me is all part of the "hold the same pace" argument, but I've beaten that one to death.

Since I'm pretty methodical about these things I can share what I do. I believe in "eat early and often in small quantities". I'm looking to provide a steady dose of carbs to my bloodstream in the hopes my body will use that instead of glycogen. If I'm using gels, I eat a HALF of a gel every second mile (3k) starting at about 6k. I don't bother with eating them past ~32k, since I'm hoping to be done before that hits my system. Sounds like a lot, but it actually works out to 5 gels, 1/2 at a time: I just carry the other half until I'm ready to eat it. This works out fairly well, since you should really take them with water. The right amount for a full Gel is TWO cups, so 1/2 at a time is one race cup: easier to grab that. YMMV

MichaelMc wrote:The right amount for a full Gel is TWO cups, so 1/2 at a time is one race cup: easier to grab that.

One race cup is only a couple ounces of water, though-- they only hold about 6 oz and are rarely more than half-full. But you don't really need two full cups (16 oz) of water for every gel, anyway... at least most people don't.

Jwolf wrote:

MichaelMc wrote:The right amount for a full Gel is TWO cups, so 1/2 at a time is one race cup: easier to grab that.

One race cup is only a couple ounces of water, though-- they only hold about 6 oz and are rarely more than half-full. But you don't really need two full cups (16 oz) of water for every gel, anyway... at least most people don't.

I was actually talking race cups, not recipe "Cup"s of water, so we're on the same track. I figure I get 4-6 oz of water per race cup, so 2 per gel is close enough, I hope.

Not that I have much to contribute to this discussion (I'm trying to learn as much as I can from this) but this is one of the reasons I went to clif shot bloks over gels so that I could take smaller doses of carbs more often without carrying around half-eaten gels.

MichaelMc wrote:

Jwolf wrote:

MichaelMc wrote:The right amount for a full Gel is TWO cups, so 1/2 at a time is one race cup: easier to grab that.

One race cup is only a couple ounces of water, though-- they only hold about 6 oz and are rarely more than half-full. But you don't really need two full cups (16 oz) of water for every gel, anyway... at least most people don't.

I was actually talking race cups, not recipe "Cup"s of water, so we're on the same track. I figure I get 4-6 oz of water per race cup, so 2 per gel is close enough, I hope.

Oh, OK. In the past I've heard people recommend as much as 16 oz of water (2 recipe cups) per gel to get the "right" dilution (about 5-8% sugar:water), but that is pretty excessive. You'd end up drinking more water than you need, in most cases.

This is really good stuff to know about the gels and "race cups" of water. On my LSD's I had been taking a full gel and 8 oz water with each one, but I noticed that the Saskatchewan marathon will have water stations every 3k. So I guess I'll use 1/2 a gel at each station with the water they hand out.

Recipe cups? Some potentially dangerous advice being given out here, particularly as we head into the upcoming hot summer months regarding gel intake and hydration. Just a couple quick notes as I really don't want to delve too into these types of discussions, I'd rather train than debate training, but I speak up because lots of people seem to be taking notes in this thread and it's a subject I have researched and tested extensively.

There is no recipe as to how much water you need to take a gel, obviously your body can digest fluids (carbo-pro, perpetuem, heed) faster and more efficiently than it can digest solids (power bars) and semi-solids (gels). So the more water you drink with it, the less "semi-solid" and more "fluid" the gel becomes in your stomach, and the faster it will be absorbed into the bloodstream to fuel your working muscles. Some factors that will determine how efficient YOUR body can digest under the stress of say a marathon would be how hard you're working, how fit you are, how hot it is outside, how hydrated you are, etc.

You have a finite amount of glycogen in your system, and it's fueling your muscles. You can supplement with gels, but you cannot replenish glycogen at the rate you are using it, maybe at a rate of approximately 40%, but this is an arbitrary value swayed by many factors from individual to individual. The main reason for this is IT'S BECAUSE your blood is "already busy" in it's primary job, fueling muscles, and the digestion task is I guess you'd say quite secondary. Throw in a third task of cooling you down, and you're really asking a lot of your body.

Your body is primarily using blood to fuel your working muscles. Your body needs to divert blood from the working muscles to aid in digestion of whatever you're putting into your stomach. Therefore it stands to reason that you'd want to make it as easy as possible on your body and present a fuel source that is as easy as possible to digest, so that the body can go back to sending the blood where it matters; your working muscles. Again, to some people that would be gels, to others (a hiker or cyclist perhaps) that would be a power bar, and to others that would be strictly liquid (your elite triathletes and marathoners).

A simple solution for the everyman is the gel flask. It's easy to measure out how many ounces you're putting into it, and monitor how many calories you're ingesting, since most have the ounces marked out on the side, and "bulk" gel canisters will have the nutritional info printed on the side. I fill mine up about to the 1/3 mark and dilute the rest with water, this is roughly 5 gels and plenty for me to get through a 3 hour run without falling hypoglycemic (bonking because I don't have enough "fuel" in my system) when used in conjunction with my primary source of carbohydrates, a carbo-pro/water/electrolyte solution which doubles as my primary source of hydration in runs over 2 hours. This 1/3 gel to 2/3 water ratio makes the gels very "fluid" and quick to get into my system and digest, in fact it's about the consistency of chocolate milk. This is independent of my hydration plan, which again is largely dependent on myriad factors. A big guy like me who sweats lots is not going to survive a marathon in 85 degrees drinking a cup of water every 3k, which again is such an arbitrary value it boggles my mind that anyone would assume it's the rule. In the winter months, I require probably less than half the fluids I'd need on a summer run. Hydration/nutrition is such a personal thing from runner to runner and season to season and to suggest that everyone just needs to follow the half a gel every 3k and wash it down with a cup of water could be extremely dangerous if it was done in say the 2008 Chicago Marathon, or closer to home, a 20 mile Sunday run last summer in 100C temps. A runner covering 3k in 9 minutes and a runner covering 3k in 25 minutes are going to have different caloric requirements.

So that's the back story, the take home message is dilute your gels enough so that you can easily digest them. If they are making you want to barf, drink more water. If your stomach is sloshing around, drink less water. Experiment a bit and learn what YOU will need for the conditions YOU will face on race day.

It sounds like you misundersood Jeff, if you were talking about my comments.

I also do my hydration and nutrition seperately. I take my gels (when I take them) on a schedule and with some water (to roughly 5-7%). I drink WHENEVER I'm THIRSTY (and only then). This is the safest method. Not sure where you get dangerous out of that, or if in fact there was something in someone else's writeup.

Your method sounds good too.

Some good info in this thread. Some good guidelines, however as said before its largely personal. You should be experimenting during training to find out what works for you. In training, I will do up to 15k without gels or water. Up to 20k without any gels but with water. 20-25k , 2 gels, 1 at the beginning and 1 half way through. Above 25k I usually look to gel every 7-9k. I'm lucky to rarely have stomach issues unless I eat way too much, too close to a hard workout. I can take full gels on only a sip or 2 of water.(although I may start diluting them, I just don't like carrying anything extra). I eat a good breakfast, ie. 4 x toast with almond butter, a banana , and a cliffs bar , follow my gel routine and have yet to "crash" during a long run. I do hydrate between runs constantly (several litres a day). For my long runs and my last full, I carried my own sports drink to sip in between water stations and keep my sugar up, only took water at the stations, usually 2 cups, and didn't take the hand out gels. I faded in the last 10k but not due to fueling.

Steve

Great advice everyone, thank you so much for putting an effort into the responses!

I can’t drink out of those stupid cups on the fly! What I do is a brief stop and half fill my water bottle as required. I had no problems with Hydration Mississuagua.

I was doing GU Roctane in two gulps. I would bring it into my mouth and let it sit in my cheeks. Give it 30 seconds or so to dissolve then add water. It goes down on a very liquid form. I would follow it up with a couple of more shots of water. I never felt it sloshing around in my stomach and a couple of hours after the race I was able urinated plenty of relatively clear fluid. Hydration has to be flexible, as it has been pointed out it’s a personal thing and you have to be able to adapt to changing conditions.

There were two fatal mistakes that caused my fade….

1) I didn’t pace myself as well as I should have. My goal was 3hrs30min yet I came across the ½ in 1hrs40min too fast, a 4:45 pace when it should have been closer to 5:00.
2) Not enough fuel, I am sure I could have used another 600 calories.

West Grey Runner wrote:There were two fatal mistakes that caused my fade….

Improvement opportunity #3 - have faith in your endurance Ron. You've read that an even pace/exertion level is the best opportunity to hit a marathon goal time and Maniacs were been reminding you in advance as well. I've read your success stories - you are one hell of a runner. So believe it - when you run 4:59/K for the first 30K or 35K and have no time banked to hit your 3:30:00, you will have enough in the tank to finish at 4:59/K. You are that strong and will get to Boston next time out as a result!

OK , my final post on this thread until I run another Road Marathon.

My next 42.2 race plan ....

4:59 pace
Gel every 20 minutes
Water as required
Eload at 20K and 30K or as required
Get to 38K in one piece then use up what ever fuel is left in the tank

Let you know how it works out!

I can’t drink out of those stupid cups on the fly! What I do is a brief stop and half fill my water bottle as required. I had no problems with Hydration Mississuagua.

I can drink water from a cup albeit with some spill, but it seems I always have gatorade splilling on my face, and its stickly.

For Mississauga I carried a staw--the largest diameter I could get (was from a flower shop--used to provide support for long stem cut flowers). I cut it to 6 inch and taped it to a string and wore it like a necklace, inside my shirt till needed, less bounce. I could the drain a cup with pretty much 1-2 sucks and wasn't choking or washing my face with it.

I did also carry a water bottle, allowed me to ration when I took gels and also used it to pour on my head to cool down. For refills I did have to do the stop, but for the gatorade---no stops, no stride break---well at least early on till I broke down, but that's a different story.

dave

Mid_Packer wrote:

I can’t drink out of those stupid cups on the fly! What I do is a brief stop and half fill my water bottle as required. I had no problems with Hydration Mississuagua.

I can drink water from a cup albeit with some spill, but it seems I always have gatorade splilling on my face, and its stickly.

For Mississauga I carried a staw--the largest diameter I could get (was from a flower shop--used to provide support for long stem cut flowers). I cut it to 6 inch and taped it to a string and wore it like a necklace, inside my shirt till needed, less bounce. I could the drain a cup with pretty much 1-2 sucks and wasn't choking or washing my face with it.

I did also carry a water bottle, allowed me to ration when I took gels and also used it to pour on my head to cool down. For refills I did have to do the stop, but for the gatorade---no stops, no stride break---well at least early on till I broke down, but that's a different story.

dave

We digress, but I also used to use a straw. I even kept a backup in case I dropped the first one (no string on mine). In the end I did get the hang of squeezing the top of the cup and pouring the fluid, but the straw was a nice transition step. I felt some pressure at first to get the fluid down IMMEDIATELY, and I think that caused some clumsiness too. Now I grab one, transfer it and often go for a second cup THEN worry about drinking. Any extra water goes over my head, because I overheat. Note: some people don't like the "ove the head" bit, but I NEED it.

MichaelMc wrote:

Mid_Packer wrote:

I can’t drink out of those stupid cups on the fly! What I do is a brief stop and half fill my water bottle as required. I had no problems with Hydration Mississuagua.

I can drink water from a cup albeit with some spill, but it seems I always have gatorade splilling on my face, and its stickly.

For Mississauga I carried a staw--the largest diameter I could get (was from a flower shop--used to provide support for long stem cut flowers). I cut it to 6 inch and taped it to a string and wore it like a necklace, inside my shirt till needed, less bounce. I could the drain a cup with pretty much 1-2 sucks and wasn't choking or washing my face with it.

I did also carry a water bottle, allowed me to ration when I took gels and also used it to pour on my head to cool down. For refills I did have to do the stop, but for the gatorade---no stops, no stride break---well at least early on till I broke down, but that's a different story.

dave

We digress, but I also used to use a straw. I even kept a backup in case I dropped the first one (no string on mine). In the end I did get the hang of squeezing the top of the cup and pouring the fluid, but the straw was a nice transition step. I felt some pressure at first to get the fluid down IMMEDIATELY, and I think that caused some clumsiness too. Now I grab one, transfer it and often go for a second cup THEN worry about drinking. Any extra water goes over my head, because I overheat. Note: some people don't like the "ove the head" bit, but I NEED it.

A little bit more of a digression, but your comment about "over the head" and overheating got me wondering. From your profile pic it looks like you and I have the same same hairstyle (ie- none). I usually run with a hat on to keep from getting a scalp sunburn, but I really don't like how the hat holds the heat in. What do you do?

You need an RM buff!

erinmcd wrote:A little bit more of a digression, but your comment about "over the head" and overheating got me wondering. From your profile pic it looks like you and I have the same same hairstyle (ie- none). I usually run with a hat on to keep from getting a scalp sunburn, but I really don't like how the hat holds the heat in. What do you do?

I usually go hatless: since I've got my (remaining) hair shaved short I can now just use suntan lotion there too. In certain situations a hat seems cooler than having the sun beat on your head, but mostly I also find they hold heat in. I HAD a great "Sinister Seven" Buff, but my Wife appropriated it.

A special thanks to MichaelMc and Doonst…this thread has been rattling around in my head since Mississauga.

Back in May I wrote

OK , my final post on this thread until I run another Road Marathon.

My next 42.2 race plan ....

4:59 pace
Gel every 20 minutes
Water as required
Eload at 20K and 30K or as required
Get to 38K in one piece then use up what ever fuel is left in the tank

Let you know how it works out!

That’s more or less exactly what I did and I came out on the good side of my 3:30 goal.

Splits..
10K 49:13
21.1K 1:44:07
30k 2:28:10
35k 2:53:14
40k 3:18:13
42.2k 3:29:06

Nailed the Nutrition, Hydration and Electrolytes and kept an steady pace and used up what ever was left in me in the final K. It worked out rather well so my next “Road” Marathon will be in Boston!

West Grey Runner wrote:Nailed the Nutrition, Hydration and Electrolytes and kept an steady pace and used up what ever was left in me in the final K. It worked out rather well so my next “Road” Marathon will be in Boston!

Terrific, congratulations Ron!

ian wrote:No tricks... All I can come up with is:
(1) Mileage - the accumulation of steps, no matter how slow and no matter how spread out over the week, will make your legs more resistant to fatigue in the later stages of marathons.
(2) Patience - endurance adaptations take place over months and years, not weeks, and the training you did for this last marathon will also pay dividends for the next one.
(3) Experience - every marathon will teach you something that can be useful in the future.
(4) Discipline - trust that you'll get a better result with a cautious start and a strong finish, even if the initial pace feels too comfortable.

This has proven to be exactly correct.

Double Bellybuster wrote:

ian wrote:No tricks... All I can come up with is:
(1) Mileage - the accumulation of steps, no matter how slow and no matter how spread out over the week, will make your legs more resistant to fatigue in the later stages of marathons.
(2) Patience - endurance adaptations take place over months and years, not weeks, and the training you did for this last marathon will also pay dividends for the next one.
(3) Experience - every marathon will teach you something that can be useful in the future.
(4) Discipline - trust that you'll get a better result with a cautious start and a strong finish, even if the initial pace feels too comfortable.

This has proven to be exactly correct.

Sadly.

I really wish that the Furman FIRST plan (run less go faster!) was true, it's more fun! I guess I'm doomed to run slower marathons.

jono

Personally I have found the key to successful marathons/ races in general- is to FOCUS....race specific training.