Cross training at sub 3 hour marathon

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fingerboy
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Cross training at sub 3 hour marathon

Postby fingerboy » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:36 am

For those who have run sub 3 or are trying to -

Do you cross train or just go for various running training specifically?

I tend to do more weights & plyometrics (running muscles relate) earlier on in a cycle - then focus to 95% running in the final few months - with once a week spinning.

Though lots of people I speak to recommend working on core/isometrics/plyometrics and strength training.

Just want to sort thru the pile here.

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Re: Cross training at sub 3 hour marathon

Postby ian » Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:06 pm

For guys our age, sub-3 takes time and effort but is nowhere near our full potential, therefore it's mainly a matter of logging the miles consistently enough to make the adaptations. Cross training won't stimulate these adaptations as well as more running would, but that doesn't mean it's not beneficial for other reasons. I don't cross train much because it's usually not as convenient or enjoyable as running, but it sounds like you have a good thing going and it's not going to prevent you from lowering your PBs further.

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Re: Cross training at sub 3 hour marathon

Postby Spirit Unleashed » Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:52 pm

IMO cross training helps injury prevention because it works other muscles.
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Re: Cross training at sub 3 hour marathon

Postby Pat Menzies » Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:46 pm

Cross training actually just gives you the opportunity to get injury in other muscles/areas.
Where did the cross training = decreased injuries myth ever take off?
People who work out have the potentiual to overdo anything , whether it's running or other activities.
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Re: Cross training at sub 3 hour marathon

Postby Spirit Unleashed » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:29 pm

Pat Menzies wrote:Cross training actually just gives you the opportunity to get injury in other muscles/areas.
Where did the cross training = decreased injuries myth ever take off?
People who work out have the potentiual to overdo anything , whether it's running or other activities.

just speaking from personal experience. I think it helps me alot.
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Re: Cross training at sub 3 hour marathon

Postby Pat Menzies » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:11 pm

TexasSpirit wrote:just speaking from personal experience. I think it helps me alot.

Do you have any way of knowing that for sure? Have you tried just running and been injured?
If you were trying to max your speed potential you might find that you get injured rather easily despite cross-training.
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Re: Cross training at sub 3 hour marathon

Postby Spirit Unleashed » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:16 pm

Pat Menzies wrote:
TexasSpirit wrote:just speaking from personal experience. I think it helps me alot.

Do you have any way of knowing that for sure? Have you tried just running and been injured?
If you were trying to max your speed potential you might find that you get injured rather easily despite cross-training.

Well, I'm not really fast like fingerboy, so maybe I shouldn't have replied. I will stick to the idea that using other muscles besides just the ones I use running down the road helps me reduce injuries. Yes, speed work would injure me easily (always has). But moving in more than one direction helps.

dang, Pat, I'll just stop. I don't have scientific evidence and I know you are a wonderful coach.
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Re: Cross training at sub 3 hour marathon

Postby Ironboy » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:06 am

If you want to be a really good runner, then run.

If you want to be really good at other stuff too, cross train.

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Re: Cross training at sub 3 hour marathon

Postby fingerboy » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:56 am

Thanks for the suggestions - I will prob keep at the level I'm currently at - minimal isometric/plyometric type stuff.

The ironic thing here is that my Achilles Tendon is sort of sore these days ... :p But I'm training anyways - seems manageable.

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Re: Cross training at sub 3 hour marathon

Postby PinkLady » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:48 am

It's always been debatable if cross training helps your actual running.....evidence would suggest not, at least directly. However, certain cross training activities can reduce muscle imbalances, stretch everything that needs stretching, strengthen your core, etc, which falls into injury-prevention territory. Thus, IMO, cross training won't help you run better, but it can reduce the chances of injury from the running, which means less lost time and higher running training volume, which WILL help your running.

ie. will doing lots of biking make you faster as a runner when you get off the bike? Likely not.

Will doing yoga help your core strength and flexibility, thus improving your form and reducing the potential for injury when you *do* run? I believe so!

Some of the most helpful non-running activities IME are barefoot ones......yoga, pilates, Physique (originally developed for conditioning for ballet dancers). The benefits from the flexibility, core, and feet/ankle/lower leg strengthening work, as well as focused glute work (common weakness in runners) has been tremendous for me. Will it make me faster? Well, no....but it has definitely made my body stronger and more capable of handling the training that *will* make me faster.
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Re: Cross training at sub 3 hour marathon

Postby Pat Menzies » Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:45 pm

PinkLady wrote:It's always been debatable if cross training helps your actual running.....evidence would suggest not, at least directly. However, certain cross training activities can reduce muscle imbalances, stretch everything that needs stretching, strengthen your core, etc, which falls into injury-prevention territory. Thus, IMO, cross training won't help you run better, but it can reduce the chances of injury from the running, which means less lost time and higher running training volume, which WILL help your running.

ie. will doing lots of biking make you faster as a runner when you get off the bike? Likely not.

Will doing yoga help your core strength and flexibility, thus improving your form and reducing the potential for injury when you *do* run? I believe so!

Some of the most helpful non-running activities IME are barefoot ones......yoga, pilates, Physique (originally developed for conditioning for ballet dancers). The benefits from the flexibility, core, and feet/ankle/lower leg strengthening work, as well as focused glute work (common weakness in runners) has been tremendous for me. Will it make me faster? Well, no....but it has definitely made my body stronger and more capable of handling the training that *will* make me faster.

I will believe this when your running log has a few months of posts with no mention of chiropractors, random unheard of pains and bodily structures that can only be found in a medical textbook. :wink:
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Re: Cross training at sub 3 hour marathon

Postby PinkLady » Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:51 pm

Pat Menzies wrote: I will believe this when your running log has a few months of posts with no mention of chiropractors, random unheard of pains and bodily structures that can only be found in a medical textbook. :wink:


But that's cuz I'm a hypochondriac. :shifty: And also because I have a bad tendency to not find time for yoga, etc when I'm running 4+ days a week. :oops:

Alright, I'll amend the above to say that "I *believe* these cross training activities will prevent injury". :wink: I'll let you know after the winter, shall I? As, I plan to get at least 2-3 times a week of yoga, etc into my routine.
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Re: Cross training at sub 3 hour marathon

Postby Pat Menzies » Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:12 pm

The trouble with cross training is that if you're actually working hard enough at the alternate activity to make a strength difference the muscle soreness from that will start impacting your running stride. It's hard to take a set of sore muscles along for the ride, even if they aren't playing a significant part in the actual run.
As soon as you start "protecting" a sore spot by altering your stride, you're asking for an injury.
That's why cross trainers end up chasing soreness around their body in a futile attempt to get rid of it.
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Re: Cross training at sub 3 hour marathon

Postby Doonst » Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:35 pm

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Re: Cross training at sub 3 hour marathon

Postby MichaelMc » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:22 pm

I would argue that cross training is good for "well rounded fitness" but not the route to "fastest running improvement". I train various things because I do various sports, not because it makes me a better runner. If I felt I was lacking strength in a given area then I probably would do some specific non running training for that.

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Re: Cross training at sub 3 hour marathon

Postby alexk » Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:25 am

To answer the OP: I also agree that in order to run faster, you need to run more.

Having said that, I personally see a lot of value in XT. If not to make me a faster runner, at least to make me a better runner. I've been XT, in addition to logging miles, for the past year. And I've personally enjoyed it and gotten a lot stronger in other areas of fitness.

Interestingly enough, I've also set PBs in the 10k, 21.1k and 42.2k distances (after lots of years running). I know this isn't because of the XT I've done. It's because I ran a lot and trained smart. But (you may or not buy into this), the XT I did was part of the equation. I'm an "emotional", as opposed to "scientific", runner. I attach a lot of emotion and feeling to my running and racing. So if I feel stronger (which XT made me feel) then I will take that feeling with me when I toe the start line and run a better race. That has been my experience but may not be the case for others.

I think XT is good for the off season (which I'm in), when you're focused more on building miles and can relax a bit more with your paces and running workouts. When I'm training for a specific race, I cut back on the XT but I take the gains I've made into my training.

This has worked for me. And I've never been to a Chiropractor and haven't seen a physio in over 2 yrs (knock on wood) :).
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Cross training at sub 3 hour marathon

Postby purdy65 » Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:39 am

I would echo alexk 100%. I don't do a lot of cross training, but what I do helps. Strengthening of core and running related muscles have made me a stronger runner, though it's the miles that have made me faster.

Also never been to a chiro or physio, I don't run with orthotics or, conversely vibrams. Never been injured in 10 years of running, so I keep doing what I'm doing. :)
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Re: Cross training at sub 3 hour marathon

Postby dgrant » Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:56 am

MichaelMc wrote:I would argue that cross training is good for "well rounded fitness" but not the route to "fastest running improvement". I train various things because I do various sports, not because it makes me a better runner. If I felt I was lacking strength in a given area then I probably would do some specific non running training for that.


Who let a sub 3 hour marathoner into this sub 3 hour marathoners thread?

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Re: Cross training at sub 3 hour marathon

Postby Double Bellybuster » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:58 am

TexasSpirit wrote:Well, I'm not really fast like fingerboy, so maybe I shouldn't have replied.


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Cross training at sub 3 hour marathon

Postby Jwolf » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:39 pm

I guess I don't know what it means to be a "stronger" runner if it doesn't meant "faster". Does it just mean that you're a runner who gets stronger?

It seems that the general conclusion is that cross-training is good for overall fitness and if you want to improve in other ways, but it won't do much to actually help you run faster.
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Re: Cross training at sub 3 hour marathon

Postby jamix » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:58 pm

I think cross training can be effective for those who aren't capable of handling a high running mileage. It could depend on what your doing for cross-training though. I've found that hard cycling intervals helped keep my shorter distance running speed stay at its peak level, even when I hadn't done any shorter distance speed work in a long time. This was a plus, because doing those running HIIT or R-workouts often lead to injury.
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Re: Cross training at sub 3 hour marathon

Postby fingerboy » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:59 am

Bump,

I've reconsidered. And repented.
I think there is a room for cross training - especially in leg strenghtening and core.


I cut out my spin class workouts though, but instead I replaced this with 45min of run specific strength training (easy stuff so far).

I have found that my hammies have had their weaknesses in training cycles and its not getting any easier with this added training, so I have begun to supplement some strength back in there.


Just to note - my hamstrings are totally fine WHEN I'm running, but when I'm NOT running they were getting pretty tight and awkward. Especially the right side one.

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Re: Cross training at sub 3 hour marathon

Postby QuickChick » Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:56 pm

Winter hamstring!! I get that too. :lol: Everything just tightens up more in the winter. I think strength work on it would make it worse, not better, though (for me anyway) as it would tighten them even more... are you strengthening the hammies themselves? Or your glutes/core? Perhaps (UGH) yoga might help?

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Re: Cross training at sub 3 hour marathon

Postby Christine_Runs » Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:13 pm

Hi Ironboy,

This is probably 'old news' to you as you have been around much longer than I but the book Run Less, Run Faster makes a compelling argument.

C

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Re: Cross training at sub 3 hour marathon

Postby Ironboy » Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:41 pm

Christine_Runs wrote:Hi Ironboy,

This is probably 'old news' to you as you have been around much longer than I but the book Run Less, Run Faster makes a compelling argument.

C



I'll have to check it out. Not being a 3 hour marathoner I can really argue the point much, but with Crossfit and minimal running I've pretty much maintained my run fitness.


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