Wanna Go Fast? Get Bigger? Go Vegan

[turd ferguson]

The problem I have is that we don't treat food animals with respect. Once upon a time, animals were treated with respect, we ate them but we were thankful. Now animals are treated as little more than protein with feet.

I'm not sure it makes a nutritional difference (you can't taste respect) but I think it diminishes us as a society, the way we treat our animals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ--faib7to

Some irony in the message at the end of the vid in the context of some of preceding discussion... If we want cheap food, the process has to be industrialized. Right or wrong, that's the plain truth.

Agree entirely.

Some people are willing to pay, some aren't.

And many can't afford it - its easy for advocates to say that everyone should upgrade their diets, but if you're feeding a couple kids on a low wage, avoiding factory meat is going to be difficult.

Still an interesting discussion, though.

[jonovision_man]

The problem I have is that we don't treat food animals with respect. Once upon a time, animals were treated with respect, we ate them but we were thankful. Now animals are treated as little more than protein with feet.

I'm not sure it makes a nutritional difference (you can't taste respect) but I think it diminishes us as a society, the way we treat our animals.

Most of society has no idea how that nicely packaged piece of meat started out, we're very divorced from the process. So IMO it has virtually no impact on us... it's just quietly happening in the background.

I also believe that animal rights folks cherry-pick the worst of the industry and try to pass it off as the norm, when it's not really the case. Get out to any farm in your rural community, and you're likely to see decent people and animals in decent conditions being treated well. Unhealthy animals aren't good for business.

jono

[दिवंगत]

Some people are willing to pay, some aren't.

And many can't afford it - its easy for advocates to say that everyone should upgrade their diets, but if you're feeding a couple kids on a low wage, avoiding factory meat is going to be difficult.

Still an interesting discussion, though.

We looked a lot closer at our food sources after watching a documentary called "Food Inc." It was quite eye-opening in terms of the "business" of food production.

Oops, just realised this is a bit OT, sorry for the hijack...

[phorunner]

The problem I have is that we don't treat food animals with respect. Once upon a time, animals were treated with respect, we ate them but we were thankful. Now animals are treated as little more than protein with feet.

Again, I'll make my point that's been ignored every time I've posted it.

What makes animal life more valuable than plant life (or the earth?). Is it because veggies aren''t cute and furry? It can't stare you in the eyes?

Pumping chemicals into the earth, GMO's and all sorts of veg farming practices aren't respectful of BOTH plant and animal life. So forgive me if I don't see the validity to that reasoning.

[drghfx]

The problem I have is that we don't treat food animals with respect. Once upon a time, animals were treated with respect, we ate them but we were thankful. Now animals are treated as little more than protein with feet.

Again, I'll make my point that's been ignored every time I've posted it.

What makes animal life more valuable than plant life (or the earth?). Is it because veggies aren''t cute and furry? It can't stare you in the eyes?

Pumping chemicals into the earth, GMO's and all sorts of veg farming practices aren't respectful of BOTH plant and animal life. So forgive me if I don't see the validity to that reasoning.

I'll let Yahoo Answers answer this one. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 342AA6eyZ2

Is eating vegetables murder?
Yes, killing animals is murder, but what about our poor little plant babies? I mean, they do feel things. (for example the venus fly trap, it uses sensors to feel its prey... then it digests it) So when you pick your vegetables from the plant... or tear it from the ground... you are KILLING!!!

Have fun answering this... if you dare.

(just give me your opinion on the matter... I dont care if you agree or not. Do you think eating vegetables is eating a murdered leaf? The same way eating a cow is eating murdered flesh?)

Best Answer - Chosen by Voters
The point of veganism isn't to avoid killing, it's to avoid the exploitation of sentient beings. So far, there is almost as much evidence for the sentience of plants as there is for the sentience of some of the people who like to troll the vegetarian and vegan section.

[turd ferguson]

The problem I have is that we don't treat food animals with respect. Once upon a time, animals were treated with respect, we ate them but we were thankful. Now animals are treated as little more than protein with feet.

Again, I'll make my point that's been ignored every time I've posted it.

What makes animal life more valuable than plant life (or the earth?). Is it because veggies aren''t cute and furry? It can't stare you in the eyes?

Pumping chemicals into the earth, GMO's and all sorts of veg farming practices aren't respectful of BOTH plant and animal life. So forgive me if I don't see the validity to that reasoning.

Didn't mean to ignore you - I don't have a good answer for that, other than just knowing (without science) that picking and eating an ear of corn just isn't the same as killing and eating a cow. Has anyone actually felt guilt or sadness at harvesting or eating lettuce? That's why its different, but I can't put it into better words.

I agree with you on farming practices, etc. We need to respect the earth as well.

[phorunner]

So because we can't prove whether veggies do/don't "feel", you'll just assume they don't? Could it just be that we don't understand how plants communicate things like pain?

[turd ferguson]

So because we can't prove that veggies don't "feel", you'll just assume they don't? Could it just be that we can't understand how plants communicate things like pain?

Exactly.

But if it turns out that corn has feelings, we're all screwed.

[RayMan]

So because we can't prove that veggies don't "feel", you'll just assume they don't. Could it just be that we can't understand how plants communicate things like pain?

There is evidence that plants do react to being attacked (i.e. eaten), and can communicate with neighbouring plants so that their neighbours begin to secrete defensive oils and so on.

But I still feel healthier and less guilty eating baby spinach instead of baby seal.

[phorunner]

There is evidence that plants do react to being attacked (i.e. eaten), and can communicate with neighbouring plants so that their neighbours begin to secrete defensive oils and so on.

Interesting. I wonder if this has made anyone rethink being vegan/vegetarian. Or at least come up with a better reason.

[eme]

There is evidence that plants do react to being attacked (i.e. eaten), and can communicate with neighbouring plants so that their neighbours begin to secrete defensive oils and so on.

Interesting. I wonder if this has made anyone rethink being vegan/vegetarian. Or at least come up with a better reason.

If you can get it at your local library, pick up a copy of the book "The China Study" - interesting reading.

[phorunner]

There is evidence that plants do react to being attacked (i.e. eaten), and can communicate with neighbouring plants so that their neighbours begin to secrete defensive oils and so on.

Interesting. I wonder if this has made anyone rethink being vegan/vegetarian. Or at least come up with a better reason.

If you can get it at your local library, pick up a copy of the book "The China Study" - interesting reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study#Criticisms

[HCcD]

http://www.department13designs.com/vegan.html

[pts]

There is evidence that plants do react to being attacked (i.e. eaten), and can communicate with neighbouring plants so that their neighbours begin to secrete defensive oils and so on.

Interesting. I wonder if this has made anyone rethink being vegan/vegetarian. Or at least come up with a better reason.

I am a vegetarian, and I will give my best 'answer' based on my own thoughts. In university I took a philosophy class that looked a lot at this question, basically where do we draw lines (living/non living, feeling/non-feeling, sentient/non-sentient). There is no definitive proof, just as there is not definitive proof of things like God. So, it goes back to your own beliefs. I will admit that my beliefs for mammals, insects, plants etc have a lot to do with the ideas that we sympathize with animals that we can anthropomorphize better (so the cuddly seal over the spider, the spider over the lettuce). That doesn't mean this value is right (or that it is wrong), it just is. I choose to believe that based on what I currently know lettuce does not feel pain, lettuce does not show signs of distress when its young is taken from it when it sprouts. I also have a human-first ethic to some extent, as I would rather a cow suffer than a child, again, just my thoughts. I suggest if you are really interested in animal ethics and these types of questions then Peter Singer is a good read (although very controversial, but gets you thinking. I don't agree with most of what he says, but love the way it makes me think).

So, no, I don't feel I need to come up with a better reason, I have thought my decision through.

[phorunner]

There is evidence that plants do react to being attacked (i.e. eaten), and can communicate with neighbouring plants so that their neighbours begin to secrete defensive oils and so on.

Interesting. I wonder if this has made anyone rethink being vegan/vegetarian. Or at least come up with a better reason.

I am a vegetarian, and I will give my best 'answer' based on my own thoughts. In university I took a philosophy class that looked a lot at this question, basically where do we draw lines (living/non living, feeling/non-feeling, sentient/non-sentient). There is no definitive proof, just as there is not definitive proof of things like God. So, it goes back to your own beliefs. I will admit that my beliefs for mammals, insects, plants etc have a lot to do with the ideas that we sympathize with animals that we can anthropomorphize better (so the cuddly seal over the spider, the spider over the lettuce). That doesn't mean this value is right (or that it is wrong), it just is. I choose to believe that based on what I currently know lettuce does not feel pain, lettuce does not show signs of distress when its young is taken from it when it sprouts. I also have a human-first ethic to some extent, as I would rather a cow suffer than a child, again, just my thoughts. I suggest if you are really interested in animal ethics and these types of questions then Peter Singer is a good read (although very controversial, but gets you thinking. I don't agree with most of what he says, but love the way it makes me think).

So, no, I don't feel I need to come up with a better reason, I have thought my decision through.

Fair enough. I appreciate a well-thought out response.

[Spirit Unleashed]

My final conviction about not eating meat came from a realization that it interferred with my spiritual connection. Since that is an inner thing, I won't be able to prove it to you.

There are valid reasons of conscience and conviction for not eating meat, but they do get mixed up in alot of confusing non-scientific information. I liked this book a lot: World Peace Diet by Will Tuttle. http://www.worldpeacediet.com/. But the blog on this web page will make "you guys" dissing vegetarians ROTFLOL. After trying to sort thru Jesus, St Francis, Hare Krishna, Hinduism, etc, of course a meat eater is going to have plenty of evidence for argument against all theories.

[drghfx]

"Pills" tend not to help any cause!

From the Globe. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/foo ... le1738705/

How do I cope with angry vegetarians?

My best friend’s husband claims to be a lacto-ovo-vegetarian – he’s also a total pill. He brought his own quinoa salad to a party I threw last spring and then sneered in front of the other guests when I brought out the flank steak. Is there a polite way to invite just her to my dinner parties?

I would normally recommend a string of nose-to-tail dinners in a case like this: Nothing cows the PETA set like a platter of steaming tongue and kidney stew. But it sounds like your friend’s husband would only see a menu like that as a provocation. You should have a partially honest conversation with her: Tell her that her husband’s veggie militancy is making your dinner parties uncomfortable, but maybe leave out the part where you say that he’s a pill. If that doesn’t work, you’d be justified to strike them both from your invite list for a while. You could write them a letter in milk-fed piglet’s blood.

Chris Nuttall-Smith is the food critic at Toronto Life magazine.

[seuss]

"Pills" tend not to help any cause!

From the Globe. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/foo ... le1738705/

How do I cope with angry vegetarians?

My best friend’s husband claims to be a lacto-ovo-vegetarian – he’s also a total pill. He brought his own quinoa salad to a party I threw last spring and then sneered in front of the other guests when I brought out the flank steak. Is there a polite way to invite just her to my dinner parties?

I would normally recommend a string of nose-to-tail dinners in a case like this: Nothing cows the PETA set like a platter of steaming tongue and kidney stew. But it sounds like your friend’s husband would only see a menu like that as a provocation. You should have a partially honest conversation with her: Tell her that her husband’s veggie militancy is making your dinner parties uncomfortable, but maybe leave out the part where you say that he’s a pill. If that doesn’t work, you’d be justified to strike them both from your invite list for a while. You could write them a letter in milk-fed piglet’s blood.

Chris Nuttall-Smith is the food critic at Toronto Life magazine.

this is what i don't get. if i know that a vegetarian is coming to dinner, i make a vegetarian dinner. i'll bet dollars to doughnuts that the meat-eaters don't even notice. everyone goes home satisfied, no one is singled out, and maybe i get a few karma points somewhere. what's the big deal?

[Joe Dwarf]

this is what i don't get. if i know that a vegetarian is coming to dinner, i make a vegetarian dinner. i'll bet dollars to doughnuts that the meat-eaters don't even notice. everyone goes home satisfied, no one is singled out, and maybe i get a few karma points somewhere. what's the big deal?

I don't think the problem was making the meal, the problem was the attitude of the guest.

[Jwolf]

this is what i don't get. if i know that a vegetarian is coming to dinner, i make a vegetarian dinner. i'll bet dollars to doughnuts that the meat-eaters don't even notice. everyone goes home satisfied, no one is singled out, and maybe i get a few karma points somewhere. what's the big deal?

I don't think the problem was making the meal, the problem was the attitude of the guest.

well the host didnt exactly make a vegetarian meal.

It doesn't make a good story to describe the majority of hosts who are more than happy to accomodate vegetarians and the majority of vegetarian guests who are gracious to have someone else cook a meal for them.

[phorunner]

this is what i don't get. if i know that a vegetarian is coming to dinner, i make a vegetarian dinner. i'll bet dollars to doughnuts that the meat-eaters don't even notice. everyone goes home satisfied, no one is singled out, and maybe i get a few karma points somewhere. what's the big deal?

I don't think the problem was making the meal, the problem was the attitude of the guest.

cosign.

I know that it's likely that If I'm having company over, I'll have some options. I don't see why one needs to totally avoid cooking meat if a vegetarian is there. As long as there's other stuff to eat, then they really shouldn't have any gripes. Just don't eat the meat, eat the multitude of other stuff on the table....

[Jwolf]

this is what i don't get. if i know that a vegetarian is coming to dinner, i make a vegetarian dinner. i'll bet dollars to doughnuts that the meat-eaters don't even notice. everyone goes home satisfied, no one is singled out, and maybe i get a few karma points somewhere. what's the big deal?

I don't think the problem was making the meal, the problem was the attitude of the guest.

cosign.

I know that it's likely that If I'm having company over, I'll have some options. I don't see why one needs to totally avoid cooking meat if a vegetarian is there. As long as there's other stuff to eat, then they really shouldn't have any gripes. Just don't eat the meat, eat the multitude of other stuff on the table....

I think it goes both ways, though. The host in that story didn't seem to have the greatest of attitudes either.

[Joe Dwarf]

The host in that story didn't seem to have the greatest of attitudes either.

I'm not sure where that's implied in the story. Frankly there's not enough information. What did the host serve that the guest felt compelled to bring his own food? Does the guest just assume as a matter of course that even the vegetable dishes wouldn't be prepared to his standards (frankly not that outrageous an assumption)? Did the guest just make a face, or was he actively advocating his beliefs?

The advice columnist OTOH seems to have the attitude. Plus, I'm never sure how these columnists dole out advice on such little information. You just know the Dear Ann type letters are telling only one side of whatever story there is.

[HCcD]

this is what i don't get. if i know that a vegetarian is coming to dinner, i make a vegetarian dinner. i'll bet dollars to doughnuts that the meat-eaters don't even notice. everyone goes home satisfied, no one is singled out, and maybe i get a few karma points somewhere. what's the big deal?

I don't think the problem was making the meal, the problem was the attitude of the guest.

well the host didnt exactly make a vegetarian meal.

It doesn't make a good story to describe the majority of hosts who are more than happy to accomodate vegetarians and the majority of vegetarian guests who are gracious to have someone else cook a meal for them.

Unless, you are preparing the vegetarian meal in a true, non-meatatarian kitchen environment, don't you still run the risk of cross-contamination, if you used the same cooking utensils and pots, pans, etc. ??

And, just throwing it out there ... does the belief also apply to the non-use of "animal" products, whether it is for clothing, boots/shoes, wallets, etc. ??

[turd ferguson]

The host in that story didn't seem to have the greatest of attitudes either.

I'm not sure where that's implied in the story. Frankly there's not enough information. What did the host serve that the guest felt compelled to bring his own food? Does the guest just assume as a matter of course that even the vegetable dishes wouldn't be prepared to his standards (frankly not that outrageous an assumption)? Did the guest just make a face, or was he actively advocating his beliefs?

The advice columnist OTOH seems to have the attitude. Plus, I'm never sure how these columnists dole out advice on such little information. You just know the Dear Ann type letters are telling only one side of whatever story there is.

Frankly I don't believe that in crappy little columns like that, that the questions are even real. I think the columnists just make them up to suit whatever snarky answer they want to give.