Hanson brothers' marathon plan

[Jwolf]

There's an article in the January edition of Runner's World about the Hanson brothers' marathon plan. Has anyone seen it? Is it just a recycled version of a similar article from 2006?

http://www.runningtimes.com/Article.asp ... ategoryID=

They also have versions of their plans on their website (they coach out of Detroit): http://www.hansons-running.com/

In their plan, no long run every goes above 16 miles (26K), but you run longer midweek mileage. That includes a semi-long run on Saturday and runs on 6 days/week. This is a modified version of what they use for their elite program, but tailored to the regular recreational runner. The idea is that you can do better quality miles if the long run isn't super-long, essentially lessening the importance of the one single long run in favor of hefty total mileage and quality.

I've always been intrigued by their program. I've wondered how it would work for me, but I worry about the heavier midweek intensity. Has anyone tried it or known someone to have? I think Strider has done something similar.

[Darth Tater]

I think these guys did it, and it beat them up pretty good.

[Jwolf]

I haven't seen that movie in AGES.

[ian]

My first thought on the thread title was identical to DT's, apparently.

Jenn, I'm wondering if this sort of program might be a great winter plan for you as a compromise between base-building and getting spring 10K and 21K PBs. Later on, you could decide if it would work for you for 42K.

[Jwolf]

The first two replies in a similar post I found in RW forum were the same (the Slapshot picture).

Ian- Another good friend of mine said "That plan is great-- for a half-marathon."

It's not too different than what I was planing for half-marathon/10K training anyway.

But I was mostly interested in how people find it translates to the longer distances. There is so much people say about the importance of the 30K+ runs in pretty much any other plan, but they disagree.

Also I was wondering if anyone has actually seen the new article-- not that I would expect there to be anything new.

[ultraslacker]

am I the only one who thought of these Hanson brothers?

[Jwolf]

Yeah, that came up on the RW forum too.

Unfortunately not a lot of comments about the actual plan, though. It seems that not too many people do it.

I guess I should have written "Hanson marathon plan for recreational runners" and not "Hanson brothers' plan."

[Robbie-T]

I've never followed their plan but I did train for Mississauga Marathon last year with only running one run = 30k (ATB race), many where 25-29k (~2 hours) but nothing over 30k.

It worked for me, I think it is as valid a training plan as any.
Probably better for an experienced/ advanced runner then a notice or first-timer.

[Jwolf]

It worked for me, I think it is as valid a training plan as any.
Probably better for an experienced/ advanced runner then a novice or first-timer.

They have both novice and advanced versions of the plan on their website. The novice version has less mileage overall, but follows the same principles.

Novice plan: http://www.hansons-running.com/images/t ... rathon.pdf

Advanced plan: http://www.hansons-running.com/images/t ... vanced.pdf

They also have a half-marathon plan with long runs of only up to 16-20K, but they have those almost every week. http://www.hansons-running.com/images/t ... rathon.pdf

[Lightning]

Sorry, JWolf, can not add anything valuable to this thread in terms of experience but the program looks pretty interesting. Robbie T, I am intrigued that you were able to run so well sans several 30k plus runs! Amazing!!! I have always thought that one needed to bank several 30k plus runs (I have 6 for this training cycle!), but you obviously blow that theory right out of the water.

Anybody else not run a lot of 30k runs and still do ok on their race? I am not changing my program now, but I am curious.

[MikeM]

I read the RW issue with this article over the Christmas break. I haven't seen the old article about it, but this one was about the writer's experience trying to get back to an old PB using the plan. It worked well for him but he was definitely an experienced, fast, runner (I think the PB was sub 2:40).

I thought about trying the plan because with a baby in the house it's been tough to get out for 1.5-2 hr runs let alone the 3+ hour runs for 30K+. However, getting out two weekend days in a row would probably be just as tough so I didn't give it any more thought. Also, puttin' on the foil would add to the prep time before runs.

[Jogger Barbie]

Anybody else not run a lot of 30k runs and still do ok on their race? I am not changing my program now, but I am curious.

What constitutes "a lot"? It always feels like you can never have enough... FWIW, I ran the Ottawa Marathon at the end of May, and the Hamilton marathon the same day as you , and just checked my training logs. Following the marathon, my first 30 km run was the Midsummer race on August 21, then I did 32 km on September 5, 32 km on October 3, and 36 km on October 16. Which doesn't seem like many to me, and one of the things worrying me before Hamilton was that I didn't have more 30+ km runs in the bank.

OTOH, I also raced two half marathons (Sept 26 and Oct 10), and did a lot of tempo or race pace runs starting in late July. And ended up doing much better in Hamilton than I expected (huge PB). Which seems similar to the Hanson approach.

However, the Hanson plan does not appeal to me at all. I LOVE the 30+ km runs. But my DH (Ed a.k.a. Terrific Whatzit) likes it, and in fact is just starting to train for Vancouver using one of their programs. Jenn, I'll mention this thread to him.

[Jwolf]

I thought about trying the plan because with a baby in the house it's been tough to get out for 1.5-2 hr runs let alone the 3+ hour runs for 30K+.

I remember now that was part of Rob's reason for it-- Getting out for a solid 2-hour run every week (which for him is about 26K) plus other 90-minute runs on other days was easier for him than one big long run.

However, getting out two weekend days in a row would probably be just as tough so I didn't give it any more thought.

This is part of it for me-- I often can do a 75-90 minute run on Saturday, but it would be hard to do it every weekend. I've thought of reworking it such that my longest run is Monday, though-- since I don't work on Monday...

Also, puttin' on the foil would add to the prep time before runs.

:P

[Robinandamelia]

I think it can work as well. The concept of training for the "last 16 miles of the race" is interesting.

[scrumhalfgirl]

Do you listen to the Phedipedations (sp?) podcast? With Steven Runner? I'm pretty sure he trained for a marathon using a Hanson-based plan and found it very helpful - I think that was when he was trying to break 4 hours.

[Terrific Whatzit]

Do you listen to the Phedipedations (sp?) podcast? With Steven Runner? I'm pretty sure he trained for a marathon using a Hanson-based plan and found it very helpful - I think that was when he was trying to break 4 hours.

I listen to it regularly and that's where I first heard of the plan.

I've used the plan twice -- did the Beginners for 2008 Waterfront and the Advanced for 2009 PEC. I'm doing the Advanced now for Vancouver.

I feel I have made progress using it. Blocking out time to get some of the mid-week runs in (some of the Thursdays are 14-15k) can be tough.

Probably the biggest jump I saw was between the 2008 ATB (30k in 3:32 - March) and the 2008 Mid-Summer (30k in 2:59 - Aug). The Mid-Summer I did partway through the training. (my Mid-Summer was reported on Phedipidations around ep #53 or so, BID

I adjust it to fit in the odd race or when Life interrupts. For example, once or twice I've combined the Saturday & Sunday runs in order to take one of those days off to accomplish Life stuff. While the Hansons mention that you shouldn't try to make up days you miss, I've read elsewhere that weekly mileage is a key to good training. YMMV.

In short, I'm a believer in the plan.

[5km]

Jwolf:

The speed and strength workouts in the Hanson beginner marathon and half-marathon plans don't seem to have any distances associated with them. Are you supposed to run the same distances as those cited for the tempo runs?

By the way, the year I ran the ATB 30K, my longest training runs were 10 milers on Saturdays followed by 12 milers on Sundays or vice versa depending on time constraints.

[Terrific Whatzit]

Jwolf:
The speed and strength workouts in the Hanson beginner marathon and half-marathon plans don't seem to have any distances associated with them. Are you supposed to run the same distances as those cited for the tempo runs?

Speed Workout details --> http://www.runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=4420

They have four different speed workouts to chose from. I do Workout #1 because I have no imagination

"strength workouts are run only 10 seconds per mile faster than marathon goal pace, but with twice the volume of total intervals, such as 6x1 mile or 2x3 miles, with about half-distance recoveries." (from the 2005 article)

[MichaelMc]

I am a strong believer that the long term average weekly mileage is the most critical factor, ESPECIALLY once it reaches a certain level. If you are running 2-3 marathon distances a week (80-120km), how the easy runs are distributed isn't that important IMO. You are basically choosing between fewer, longer runs with more rest between and more frequent, shorter runs with less rest between. Not sure there is an "easier" in there, it is the same principle with "doubles".

On very low mileage, the long run is important, but whether that is simply due to the huge percentage of your weekly running it comprises or some advantage the weekly abuse confers, I'm not sure. I have no issue with the Hanson plan for high mileage runners: there are quite a few Elites who never run long except on race day, but they run very OFTEN.

What I would hate to see is the same misunderstanding occur with the Hanson plan as FIRST: it isn't really less work, it is just distributed differently.

[Jwolf]

Thanks Michael- that's a good explanation. I don't have any illusions that this would be an easier plan than what I'm used to- in fact I think it would be much harder.

Ed- thanks for your insight as well- I'm glad it's worked well for you.

Jesse- I'm a huge fan of Phedippidations. I've heard Steve's take on it and that's partly what sparked my interest again. He didn't get his sub 4:00 marathon on the plan (back in fall 2009 I think) but he did get a marathon PB of 4:01 (ouch!)... But it's hard to compare to his other training. He's using the novice plan again this spring but just as a guide for mileage- he's not very worried about speed anymore.

[Jwolf]

I was thinking about this again and wondered...

Jenn, I'm wondering if this sort of program might be a great winter plan for you as a compromise between base-building and getting spring 10K and 21K PBs. Later on, you could decide if it would work for you for 42K.

Does this really mean... "No, Jenn- you need the long runs for the endurance."

I know that you often say that certain training effects kick in after 30K that you don't get otherwise. That's mostly what I wonder about how this plan can work.

[ian]

I was thinking about this again and wondered...

Jenn, I'm wondering if this sort of program might be a great winter plan for you as a compromise between base-building and getting spring 10K and 21K PBs. Later on, you could decide if it would work for you for 42K.

Does this really mean... "No, Jenn- you need the long runs for the endurance."

I know that you often say that certain training effects kick in after 30K that you don't get otherwise. That's mostly what I wonder about how this plan can work.

No hidden motives, just an observation that the Hanson plan would make excellent training for 21K races, therefore you can experiment with a cycle without staking a goal marathon on it. I have mixed opinions on the function of 30+K runs; some of the reasons that I do them do not apply to most other marathoners.

[alexk]

Curious if anyone has anything to add to this topic? Anyone tried the Hanson plan since the original post?

I'm considering running a spring marathon and won't have a lot of extra time for long runs; overall weekly mileage shouldn't be a problem - just tough to carve out time on the weekends for 20 milers. I wouldn't be expecting a PB; the race would be more of a "bridging" marathon to get me ready for the fall. I figure it's a good time to change things up a bit.

This plan looks like it might work with my life.

[Terrific Whatzit]

Curious if anyone has anything to add to this topic? Anyone tried the Hanson plan since the original post?

I tried a different plan for the recent NYC Marathon and did my worst time ever. Does that count?

To be fair, my less than stellar performance could be due to all kinds of things unrelated to my training. I did have some injuries leading up to the event.

But I'll likely do the Hanson again for my next (TBD) marathon.

[scrumhalfgirl]

Curious if anyone has anything to add to this topic? Anyone tried the Hanson plan since the original post?

I'm considering running a spring marathon and won't have a lot of extra time for long runs; overall weekly mileage shouldn't be a problem - just tough to carve out time on the weekends for 20 milers. I wouldn't be expecting a PB; the race would be more of a "bridging" marathon to get me ready for the fall. I figure it's a good time to change things up a bit.

This plan looks like it might work with my life.

Interesting that you bumped this up again Alex - because I've been wondering the same thing. I'm trying to decide if I want to run a Spring marathon or not. While I'm on mat leave, getting out most days isn't an issue, but the longer 30km+ runs require more juggling etc. I wondered if something like this might be a good compromise. For my previous marathons, I've followed a traditional one long run on the weekend approach - sometimes with a 10-15km mid-week run, but mostly with weekday runs in the 5-8km range.