What is a marathon pace run supposed to feel like?

[QuickChick]

If 6:00 pace is conservative, she'll be able to speed up. If she can't speed up, it was probably not that conservative a pace to start out with, and if she can sustain 6:00 pace, that's still a massive pb.

[HCcD]

[Andy, that's a mathematical answer to a "feeling" question. I know how to do the math. I want the answer to how should it feel.

I was thinking about this question during my run club this morning with the group .. ended up running 19.5K / 1:40:xx as a progression run .. with the first 2.5K at a warmup effort, then picked things up .. The last 15K or so, turned out to my marathon pace and, I was able to hold a conversation, breathing was controlled and legs feeling good ...

The last person who I ended up finishing running with at the end, just ran his first official 1/2 last weekend at Army Run, in 1:33:54, so we are pretty well at the even par ... He only ran once this week on Wednesday, since the race, before today, while I ran 85K over 5 runs this week ... and, his legs were fatiguing at the end, which for him, would have been about 30 seconds slower per km, than what he was capable of sustaining ....

Aerobically, breathing, etc., I could have kept going this morning at that pace or faster ... whether or not my legs could have, due to tired legs, and only 1 gel and a bottle of water, may have slowed down after 25-30K ... I have found the hill and speedwork during the week, has improved my AT to allow me to do these paced runs a bit easier than I have been used to in the past ..

Perhaps, I may start wearing my HR monitor over the next few weeks and track what my HR is in my various workouts and compare it to my speed/pace ...

[PinkLady]

Aerobically, breathing, etc., I could have kept going this morning at that pace or faster ... whether or not my legs could have, due to tired legs, and only 1 gel and a bottle of water, may have slowed down after 25-30K ... I have found the hill and speedwork during the week, has improved my AT to allow me to do these paced runs a bit easier than I have been used to in the past ..

Perhaps, I may start wearing my HR monitor over the next few weeks and track what my HR is in my various workouts and compare it to my speed/pace ...

Yes, you should, and report back to us.....as, it's always a heated debate over how much increased mileage will help one's race, and how much quality runs will make the difference.....and, trickiest of all, what the optimal combination of the two are to maximize one's potential. That's the real holy grail question, isn't it?

[timc]

Based on the other results you list, only your 5K time says 3:30 is realistic, IMO. Your other times point at 3:45-4:00 being more likely. If I were you, I'd go out at 5:20 and speed up after 32 if you can. Don't make any decisions till after that point- 21.1 is DEFINITELY not the halfway point of a marathon!!

Good point. If I remember though, good decision-making gets very difficult at the 32 km mark.

I agree with what you say on the pacing, although I haven't really run many fast races; my last two 8Ks were trail runs, and not exactly flat and fast courses (especially the first one), and the 10K was only six weeks after my first marathon. The 5K was great, but not a very good predictor of marathon time at all.

Today's long run was 32 km in 2:55. I would be really happy with a 3:45 finish, so that's what I'm going to aim for. It also leaves more room to beat it next year.

[Lightning]

Barbara, I think you need to believe your marathon pace is realistic, or it absolutely WON'T be realistic. I think you are definitely capable of running a 5:45 pace, but if you're unsure, the doubts will creep in just when you don't want them to. Why not go out at 6:00 pace like you originally planned, which you probably feel really confident about, and speed up in the last 10K if you can? That way you'll have more confidence to back yourself up.

How many people do you know that can speed up in the last 10K of a marathon?

i know at least person, but she hasn't chimed in on this thread yet, even though she's running a marathon on nov. 6.

In the nine marathons I have run, in eight of them I have sped up in the last 10k or so. I think it is a smart race strategy to run conservatively the first few km for sure. The problem with that is you must trust that it is going to work. So, QC's advice of BELIEVING it is realistic is a big part of that strategy. Marathon pace for me when I am training always feels pretty hard, actually, and I often wonder if I will sustain it. But I always do with, as was mentioned, the magical race dust. Then again, I always do MP runs in a very long run (i.e. one hour easy, 1-2 hours MP, then the rest easy). I think you should go out at a 6 min/pace or even a bit slower to start.
As an aside, I tried to break out of my on-purpose negative split strategy. Today I tried to run a half evenly-paced and it was a GONG show!!!! I will be going for a negative split on the 6th.

[MichaelMc]

What people seem to forget is that in training you are running MP without the benefit of a taper: the accumulated fatigue of the previous weeks can be significant.

IMO real MP feels a lot harder for an experienced high mileage marathoner than a newer marathoner. A "rookie" will not be able to run nearly as high a percentage of their 10k race-pace for a full marathon as a rule: their limitation isn't SPEED, but endurance. For argument sake a solid marathoner might be able to run 95% of their 10k speed for a Full, and a newer runner 85-90%. The overall work load of a training week might be considerably higher too: many newer runners' training is limited more by potential injury than overall fatigue.

Those might be some reasons why the answers vary a lot.

[Robinandamelia]

I run my long runs pretty slow, anywhere from around 6:20-7:30/km. I run my marathons faster...last one (BQ) at 5:36/km. Aiming for faster than that in a couple of weeks. I walk more in my training long runs, and only walk through water stations in my marathons for enough time to drink the water/fluid. I read once you need to go slow to run fast and it stuck with me. I slowed my long runs right down after that and have had success in my races.

[SteveF]

What people seem to forget is that in training you are running MP without the benefit of a taper: the accumulated fatigue of the previous weeks can be significant.

This.

I always find the MP runs during training tough. Not aerobically, but legs. They're lead, with no jump from the accumulated mileage. I doubt my training and my goal pace. Then taper comes and the low mileage drives me crazy, thinking it's not enough.
Race day comes and it starts off tough, I feel rusty, but before you know it things are humming along and the problem becomes holding back to save some for the last 10k.

[Robinandamelia]

What people seem to forget is that in training you are running MP without the benefit of a taper: the accumulated fatigue of the previous weeks can be significant.

This.

I always find the MP runs during training tough. Not aerobically, but legs. They're lead, with no jump from the accumulated mileage. I doubt my training and my goal pace. Then taper comes and the low mileage drives me crazy, thinking it's not enough.
Race day comes and it starts off tough, I feel rusty, but before you know it things are humming along and the problem becomes holding back to save some for the last 10k.

Totally agree as well.

[chunkymonkeymelonhed]

The question wasn't how it should feel in the race, but how it should feel as a training run. Totally different in my experience. And the last 10k feel tough no matter what pace and no matter how well or poorly you pace. I slowed down to about 6:30/km in the last 10k of my last marathon (from about 5:35/km) and the last 10k felt much harder than the first.

Goodness. This is making re-evaluate *ever* wanting to do a full.

Do it Pinky- there is nothing like it. I had the strange experience of loving every minute of it.

[chunkymonkeymelonhed]

But how did the pace runs feel?

My MP runs felt quite hard, but not as hard as say a tempo, so I guess tiring but not the comfortably hard feeling of a tempo. When the race comes around the magic pixie dust in the air makes this quite hard pace fell quite easy...

Agreed.

During several of my longer tempos I got to the point where I was enjoying letting the legs go. The training does work- it's a little bit of magic. My regular LSD pace was 5:50 to 6:00 but when I picked it up during tempo I was 5:18-5:25. It felt like I was working but it felt GOOD, for me it was a bit of a reward. Putting in the work meant that I should be getting faster and it was nice to have a run where I could feel that happening. I loved my tempo runs.
I also ran some mid-weeks (10-12Ks) at 10K pace.
On race day I wasn't sure how I was going to run faster than LSD for 42.2K but it worked. I paid little attention to my watch (wasn't worried about per k pace) and ran more by 'feel'. I had no experience to base this on but it worked well for me, ending up with a negative split.

[chunkymonkeymelonhed]

What people seem to forget is that in training you are running MP without the benefit of a taper: the accumulated fatigue of the previous weeks can be significant.

This.

I always find the MP runs during training tough. Not aerobically, but legs. They're lead, with no jump from the accumulated mileage. I doubt my training and my goal pace. Then taper comes and the low mileage drives me crazy, thinking it's not enough.
Race day comes and it starts off tough, I feel rusty, but before you know it things are humming along and the problem becomes holding back to save some for the last 10k.

Totally agree as well.

me too.