Dreadmill incline to replicate hill training?

[Irongirl]

I'm asking this for a co-worker......since I don't go near treadmills. This has probably been asked many times, but, I've ignored those threads since I don't do treadmills.

To replicate hill training - what incline should you put the treadmill at? The RR program (which she's following) has 400m hills.....

thanks!

[Jwolf]

6-8% (sometimes even up to 10%) is usually recommended but that to me always feels way harder than a hill outside.

[jes]

If 0.5 or 1% is 'flat' on a treadmill, then anything above that counts

I usually start around 4 or 5% and increase each repeat to about 6.5% max, then back down like a ladder.

[ultraslacker]

I haven't done hills on a mill for a very long time, but when I did, I put it on a work out setting with random hill sizes. You can select difficulty level. I think that is generally better than trying to replicate repeats.


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[HCcD]

If 0.5 or 1% is 'flat' on a treadmill, then anything above that counts

I usually start around 4 or 5% and increase each repeat to about 6.5% max, then back down like a ladder.

Hill repeats? What's that? We just run tempo up and down Terry Fox and perhaps Corkstown Road, right Jes ???

Having said that I usually did ladders somewhat to what Jes suggested, from 3% to 8-10% and down with walking recovery @0% inbetween ... and, 4-6% grade @400m pace w/walking recovery @0% if running repeats ...

[jes]

If 0.5 or 1% is 'flat' on a treadmill, then anything above that counts

I usually start around 4 or 5% and increase each repeat to about 6.5% max, then back down like a ladder.

Hill repeats? What's that? We just run tempo up and down Terry Fox and perhaps Corkstown Road, right Jes ???

Having said that I usually did ladders somewhat to what Jes suggested, from 3% to 8-10% and down with walking recovery @0% inbetween ... and, 4-6% grade @400m pace w/walking recovery @0% if running repeats ...

Yeah, but I (secretly) throw in some extras sometimes Makes the time go by faster when I'm on the TM

[HCcD]

If 0.5 or 1% is 'flat' on a treadmill, then anything above that counts

I usually start around 4 or 5% and increase each repeat to about 6.5% max, then back down like a ladder.

Hill repeats? What's that? We just run tempo up and down Terry Fox and perhaps Corkstown Road, right Jes ???

Having said that I usually did ladders somewhat to what Jes suggested, from 3% to 8-10% and down with walking recovery @0% inbetween ... and, 4-6% grade @400m pace w/walking recovery @0% if running repeats ...

Yeah, but I (secretly) throw in some extras sometimes Makes the time go by faster when I'm on the TM

So, that's why you haven't been whining on Moderate/Tempo/Steady Tuesday's this winter ... And, have definitely noticed that your breathing have been very controlled and relaxed, as compared to last winter ... I guess the pace/effort is just about right for this time of year ...

[bruyere]

One thing I'd wonder about if trying to do hill repeats on the treadmill is the difference in the recovery period. That is, when you are doing hill repeats on an actual hill, you either walk or (more usually, I think), jog really slowly back down the hill. But the key there is DOWN. Your recovery period is downhill, and you can't actually do downhill on your treadmill so you could end up working a bit harder during your recovery, no? So maybe make sure you walk the recovery, or make it a bit longer? Or maybe I'm totally off and that makes no difference at all...

[Joe Dwarf]

Down is harder than flat if the hill is steep. I think practicing downhills is an important thing you miss on the treadmill.

[ultraslacker]

Down is harder than flat if the hill is steep. I think practicing downhills is an important thing you miss on the treadmill.

I agree!

[bruyere]

Down is harder than flat if the hill is steep. I think practicing downhills is an important thing you miss on the treadmill.

True, true. I was thinking of the disadvantage of losing the down as the "rest" time, but yeah, if it's really steep or you're going to be running up and down hills in real life, then that's another aspect.

[Irongirl]

Interesting discussion. The "increasing the incline" is something I would never have thought of!

My colleague is doing this as a one-time thing this weekend, so, the missing of the downhills shouldn't be a big deal. I actually walk at least halfway down since I'm so spent at the top of the hill, there's no way I could run right away!

For me, downhill training is different than during my (up)hill training.

[MichaelMc]

Running downhill might have a higher cost than benefit for many folks.

If you are running a hilly race then doing some downhill work is advised, but eccentric contractions of muscles causes far more damage than concentric and downhill running is all about eccentric contractions. The question then becomes whether the benefit is worth the price: for me the answer is "no" except where downhill running is key to the race. There is a reason why most hill repeat programs WALK the downhill.

[ultraslacker]

Running downhill might have a higher cost than benefit for many folks.

If you are running a hilly race then doing some downhill work is advised, but eccentric contractions of muscles causes far more damage than concentric and downhill running is all about eccentric contractions. The question then becomes whether the benefit is worth the price: for me the answer is "no" except where downhill running is key to the race. There is a reason why most hill repeat programs WALK the downhill.

sure, but in a normal run there are going to be hills, so is it not beneficial to practice running down them?

my worst running injury was from running downhill... now I am really careful about it but I do think practicing it is important. Maybe not necessary while doing repeats, but necessary in general...?

[La]

Running downhill might have a higher cost than benefit for many folks.

If you are running a hilly race then doing some downhill work is advised, but eccentric contractions of muscles causes far more damage than concentric and downhill running is all about eccentric contractions. The question then becomes whether the benefit is worth the price: for me the answer is "no" except where downhill running is key to the race. There is a reason why most hill repeat programs WALK the downhill.

sure, but in a normal run there are going to be hills, so is it not beneficial to practice running down them?

my worst running injury was from running downhill... now I am really careful about it but I do think practicing it is important. Maybe not necessary while doing repeats, but necessary in general...?

I think most people tend to do hill training (outside) on hills that are much steeper than those you'd typically find in a race (and you're doing them in muliples, back-to-back). So in those cases, walking the steepest part of the down hill is probably a good idea. I really think it depends on the grade of the hill.

Also, some gyms have treadmills with a negative incline of up to -1% (I think).

[ian]

Running hard down hills in training is sort of like a boxer sparring without headgear. Yes, it better simulates the conditions of the goal event but the damage usually isn't worth it. You're going to be beat up on the big day regardless, so you might as well get the most out of your training time by avoiding things which require an excessive amount of recovery in the subsequent days.

Steep hills, in particular, are primarily used for the pseudo-speedwork involved with going up them. Go gently down (especially in your post-interval exhaustion) to be ready for the next one. Gradual hills, on the other hand, can be used for easy runs and this is the sort of terrain which lets you fine-tune your downhill running technique without much risk.

A TM can be quite effective for hill training because of the ability to control the steepness and length of the hill. Recoveries can then be done either at a neutral grade or by temporarily stepping off.

[Jwolf]

Running downhill might have a higher cost than benefit for many folks.

If you are running a hilly race then doing some downhill work is advised, but eccentric contractions of muscles causes far more damage than concentric and downhill running is all about eccentric contractions. The question then becomes whether the benefit is worth the price: for me the answer is "no" except where downhill running is key to the race. There is a reason why most hill repeat programs WALK the downhill.

I agree, and so does my Achilles.

[turd ferguson]

Down is harder than flat if the hill is steep. I think practicing downhills is an important thing you miss on the treadmill.

I agree with practicing a few downhills to learn how to go down them comfortably with speed rather than terrifyingly. I don't like them as part of a regular workout.

ETA: except for trailrunning where downhilling is an actual skill.

[bruyere]

Yeah, reading more, and thinking more, the downhill part of a hill repeat workout is a different beast from training to run downhill properly and safely (and maybe quickly!) in preparation for a race or general hilly running. So, I think I take back my earlier agreement about the importance of the downhill portion of hill repeats for the purpose of practice running downhill. I think they're two separate things. In one, the downhill part is the "rest" phase of the workout. In the other, it might be the key (or a key) part of the workout.

I also agree with practising downhill a bit - especially if you're doing a race with steep or lots of downhill. I know that if I hit some of the hills I run for the first time in a race, and tried to do them quickly, I might have an issue or two.

[narr]

Also, some gyms have treadmills with a negative incline of up to -1% (I think).

I am a treadmill runner and when I wanted a decline, I placed wood under the backend of the treadmill. For a while, I had mine set so 0% on the display was really -3%. I agree that steep hills can cause more problems than good, but for someone running Boston, the grade averaged over mile sections, varies plus and minus 3%. In the race, you run downhill for so long that when you finally reach the hills, it feels like a rest. When I got over the hills, my quads were so trashed (from all the downhill running) that I couldn't raise my heart rate even though I wasn't going fast. If I was doing it over again, I would spend more time doing long runs at -3% followed by a hilly section and then more downhill running.

Except for mimicking a race course though, I would choose speed over hills.

narr (Who also remembers the feeling of Achilles tendonitis.)

[ultraslacker]

Running hard down hills in training is sort of like a boxer sparring without headgear. Yes, it better simulates the conditions of the goal event but the damage usually isn't worth it. You're going to be beat up on the big day regardless, so you might as well get the most out of your training time by avoiding things which require an excessive amount of recovery in the subsequent days.

to be clear, I wasn't talking about running hard downhill. I was just agreeing that if a person is only doing hills on a treadmill, they're missing training to run down hills. If they're running hilly runs on a regular basis, then they're getting what they need for downhill training.