Daniels Question

[Jason G]

Was hoping some of the more experienced people could comment on one aspect of marathon programs I find interesting. Many programs out there (maybe a majority?) tend to focus on primarily building strength and endurance in the earlier parts of the program and then focus on shorter, faster interval stuff closer to race date. Sort of a sharpen up the speed in the six or so weeks before the race approach.

Daniels (at least in his non-elite program), and a few others, focus on intervals immediately after the base building phase but then you are basically done with them after Q2 (half way through the program). Its strictly tempo and marathon pace after that.

Anybody have any thoughts on during what part of their marathon training program that they focus on intervals?

[MichaelMc]

Daniels Marathon programs actually go: Base, Repetition, Interval, Threshold. At least that is how the advanced ones go.

His reasoning is this: Base gets you ready for speed and allows you to build up your mileage with little stress from speedwork. Repetitions build up strength, improve running form and efficiency. Intervals improve VO2 max, giving you the capability of utilizing that strength. Threshold training improves lactic acid threshold, which is a given percentage of your VO2 max. Threshold is the limiting factor in longer races and is closest to race-pace, so he puts it last. Logical.

Pfitzinger (who used to work with Daniels) reverses the last two phases, if memory serves. His reasoning is that you should build the LT (as a percentage of VO2 max), then hit the VO2 max. An increasing VO2 max brings the LT higher along with it. Pfitz likes doing the quicker pace last as he feels it "sharpens you" right before the race, and perhaps makes marathon race pace feel easier. Also logical.

I've seen people get good results both ways (and quite a few other ways too!). I'm skeptical there is a substantial advantage either way, but I follow Daniels because the concentration on the most important factor last appeals to me.

[Stella]

I don't follow Daniel's program, but Ben Wisbey's 12 week program which I do follow has 4 phases, 3 weeks each:

1. Endurance (as it would suggest)
2. Anaerobic Threshold & Endurance (Mile intervals are one of the training sessions in each of the three weeks, as are hill repeats)
3. Race Preparation (lots of tempo runs and hill repeats as well as marathon pace running)
4. Taper and Race (a bit of a mix between phase 1 and 2 with some tempo, some intervals and one session of hill repeats in week 1 of the phase)

I've been told that this program is too short and that more time should be spent in each phase, however, I did get a PB when I followed it.

[scrumhalfgirl]

There was a good thread about this on slowtwitch recently - I'll try and find a link if I can and post it. This prompted an extended conversation on the topic with my husband and my tri club coach. General agreement was in line with what Michael posted - both types of periodization can achieve good results. Personal preference, background and invidual strengths/weaknesses may dictate if one works better for you personally.

[Nicholas]

Great analysis by Michael (as usual!) on the two approaches. I've used both and had success with both. We did discuss this elsewhere. I still think that establishing and adhering to a consistent, well thought-out plan will yield good results, be it Daniels, Pfitzinger or anyone else.
If you are looking to make the Olympic team, then, yes, you may need to be more picky about your approach.....

[Jason G]

Thanks for the responses.

Somehow makes one feel better that there is no general consensus on the one 'right' way to set up periodization. Makes sense as well that different people respond better to different programs.

[Magoo]

I agree that you have to consider your own abilities in a program. For myself endurance and strength is not a big problem. I don't want to focus my efforts on something I'm already good at. I would rather work on speed early in a program because I don't have very much. My speed won't change significantly if I go to the track a month before a marathon. I think Daniels also said to confront your weaknesses early in a program. The same goes with weight. If that is an issue, you don't want to be trying to lose 10 pounds fast like a ufc fighter before the event. Confront it early. If your weakness is endurance then design your program to address that early. There are alot general principles that work in these programs, but every runner is different.

[ian]

Useful stuff.

My group has tended to follow the base-repetition-intervals-threshold cycle that Michael mentioned. With Boston this year, I'm doing harder training a little early than normal, but rather than go through all the training cycles earlier, I've decided to take a long base phase and supplement it with a weekly threshold workout. This should get me through the spring races at 90% and then I'll complete the repetition-interval-threshold cycles during the summer in order to peak for the fall.