400m time stuck in a range. How do I improve?

[richie-rich]

I'm trying to improve my 5km time. For the past 6 weeks my 400m times have been in the range of 1:14 - 1:19. Should I try and include some shorter 200m intervals? Instead of 6x400m maybe do 8x200m with a shorter recovery time? Any help is greatly appreciated.

[ian]

If you've been doing the same sort of speedwork for a while and reached a plateau, it isn't a bad idea to mix things up. What's the rest of your weekly schedule like? It's often amazing what an additional easy run (to increase overall mileage) can do.

[Nicholas]

Sounds like you're getting too "comfortable" with that pace. As Ian said...time to shake things up and get you out of that comfort zone again.

[Doonst]

Try to spruce up your wardrobe. Always worked for me.

[RayMan]

How many repeats of that time are you doing?

[Pat Menzies]

What is your best 5km? I think you're probably doing them too fast anyway so it is doubtful getting faster over 400 repeats is going to be the key to a better 5km.

[richie-rich]

Ian - my other runs during the week are Monday (5k easy) Tuesday (intervals) Wed (off) Thurs (8-10k tempo) Fri (off) Sat (8km at 10k pace) Sun (LSD 14-18k). My legs feel good and not tired by end of each week.

Rayman - between 6-8

Doonst - maybe you are right

Pat - i think you are right. my fastest 5km time is 21 min. i'd like to break 20 min. 1:14 min 400m indicate i should be running under 6 min miles, which isn't happening. any suggestions? stretch out my intervals to 1 km each but at 5km race pace (4 min/km)?

[cgraham]

I'd think you're running them too fast. When I do 400s, the point is speed & strength - I'm doing them at about 75 seconds with a recent 5k of 17:09. If you're trying to break 20, you're really pushing things at that pace. If you really want to run 400s, slow them down and run more of them (like 10)

Rather than 400s though, I'd suggest focusing on longer intervals (1000 or 1200) at 5k pace with 1/2 the distance as a recovery jog. Do 4-5 of these - they'll probably help your race performance more.

[ian]

The weekly schedule seems reasonable and I'm with cgraham on the suggestion of doing longer intervals at 5K pace. You obviously have some good fast twitch fibers to be able to run those 400s so quickly (I also do about 75s/400m in training with a 17-minute 5K), so you need to focus on intervals that will improve your ability to maintain a fairly hard pace for longer periods of time.

[Pat Menzies]

Honestly you'll probably get faster results by just adding a couple of extra runs during the week and bumping up the distance of your runs a little. Longer reps and doing a more appropriate tempo would also be better.
8km at 10km pace is way too long and intense for a tempo. 8km at half marathon pace can be a serious workout.
I think you're running too hard and also not enough. If you back off the intensity you'll be able to run more.

[MichaelMc]

Woo: a consensus!

Targeting threshold properly, with a bit of 5k race pace intervals as Ian suggested seems like a more productive route at this point for you.

[b_squared]

Rich - just curious: what is the difference in pace between your Thurs 8-10k tempo vs your Sat 8km at 10k pace?

[The Joggler]

I agree with what the others said. If you want to work on your basic speed, you can also occasionally (and carefully) do something like 4x400 at 95% effort with a full recovery in between. It won't necessarily help your 5K time, but it will give you a better finishing kick. Plus, running fast is fun.

[richie-rich]

Rich - just curious: what is the difference in pace between your Thurs 8-10k tempo vs your Sat 8km at 10k pace?

well, included in he tempo distance is a good 1.5 km warm up and 1.5km warm down. my tempo pace is roughly 4:40/km. the Saturday 8km run is at 4:30/km pace. maybe a bit faster but not much - depends how i feel.

[richie-rich]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I know I can hold 4 min/km pace for 3 km. I need to extend that to the last 2km. The longer intervals make a lot of sense.

[Wu wei]

I suggest 25x200 on ~48s w/ :15s rest.

Repeat weekly.

[richie-rich]

I suggest 25x200 on ~48s w/ :15s rest.

Repeat weekly.

why do you want to kill me? what did i ever do to you?

[ian]

I suggest 25x200 on ~48s w/ :15s rest.

Repeat weekly.

why do you want to kill me? what did i ever do to you?

48s/200m is 4:00/K, so you'd really just be breaking the 20 minute 5K into little bites. It would take a lot of concentration to get this workout right, but physically, it's another effective way to spend some time at your 5K pace.

[Wu wei]

I suggest 25x200 on ~48s w/ :15s rest.

Repeat weekly.

why do you want to kill me? what did i ever do to you?

Most people are doing too few intervals at too high of pace for the distance they want to race.

If you can't complete 25x200 at your goal pace (~48s) with 15s rest between each... you're not going to make that pace on race day either.

If training for a 10k, 50x200.. and so on. I know marathoners who do 200x200... but only attempt that if you're well inside 3hr shape....

For 1/2 marathon, try 21x800pace/200easy. I'll usually build more intervals each week to adapt my body: 10x800, 14x800, 18x800, 21x800.

[dgrant]

I know marathoners who do 200x200... but only attempt that if you're well inside 3hr shape....

A 40km interval workout?

[ian]

I know marathoners who do 200x200... but only attempt that if you're well inside 3hr shape....

A 40km interval workout?

At what pace?

Jack Daniels refers to a training week for his top runners that ended up with 42.2K of 200s at repetition pace, leading to a cumulative marathon time of something like an hour and a half. Kind of a gimmick, but also a good way to kickstart the training season for runners with a lot of fast twitch.

Marathon pace intervals would be a bit of a PITA with the starting and stopping, but perhaps less taxing than an actual race. I've done 211 laps of a 200m indoor track (continuous) and it was spectacularly boring, especially since you couldn't zone out and risk losing count.

[Wu wei]

The pace I do these is threshold pace. They are not rep pace.. that is too fast. Think "broken threshold run".

I know marathoners who do 200x200... but only attempt that if you're well inside 3hr shape....

A 40km interval workout?

At what pace?

Jack Daniels refers to a training week for his top runners that ended up with 42.2K of 200s at repetition pace, leading to a cumulative marathon time of something like an hour and a half. Kind of a gimmick, but also a good way to kickstart the training season for runners with a lot of fast twitch.

Marathon pace intervals would be a bit of a PITA with the starting and stopping, but perhaps less taxing than an actual race. I've done 211 laps of a 200m indoor track (continuous) and it was spectacularly boring, especially since you couldn't zone out and risk losing count.

[MichaelMc]

Threshold pace? 42km of threshold pace with 15 second rests?

I'm skeptical there are many runners who can manage that. For me that would be running sub 2:48 pace for 42 km including stops and starts. No way on earth I could complete that workout: it'd be much harder than a marathon.

I must be missing something...

[Wu wei]

Threshold pace? 42km of threshold pace with 15 second rests?

I'm skeptical there are many runners who can manage that. For me that would be running sub 2:48 pace for 42 km including stops and starts. No way on earth I could complete that workout: it'd be much harder than a marathon.

I must be missing something...

No... I've never done the 200x200.
I do 200's for shorter distances. 5k and 10k.

For a marathon... 400's.

[ian]

No... I've never done the 200x200.
I do 200's for shorter distances. 5k and 10k.

For a marathon... 400's.

Hmmm... Assuming 30s of rest between 400s and choosing the slow end of threshold, that would be a 1:30 lap for me, a short circular walk, and a quick sip of water before doing it 105 more times and finishing 42.2K in a total time of about 3:30. I've done my share of unconventional workouts and I think this would be possible, but I'm not convinced that the net benefit would be greater than, say, a long progression run.