Base building for triathletes?

[ROW]

I am going to start basebuilding in November after some down time after cross country season. My last race showed I need to become a better cyclist. Any good trainer workouts that you could share please? Also I need some advice for my basebuilding plan. I am going to ask my track coach ( 2nd at world duathlon championships back in the 1990's, plus competed at a elite triathlon level) for some advice too. I will be joined a club in march, or a coach then.

My origional plans were 4-6x swims a week (60-120 minutes), 3-4 strength sessions a week, 4-5x run (30-90 minutes building up gradually)and 5x rides ( 60- 150 minutes) with one run and one bike session to be a brick workout. All the runs would be pretty easy, no actual "workouts" except the brick, I would go by feel so likely about 4:10-4:40 p/km.

But looking at my biking, I can averaged usually about 34 km per hour for a hard ride, and about 30km km per hour a normal ride. I would need to ride close to 35-40 kph if I would want to be even competitive. I feel like I haven't gotten any better at cycling except climbing this summer.

So I thinking to add a ride so 6x a week a ride and 4x a week a run. What are your opinions on this? I think more opions from different people is better than just one opinion.

[VDoT]

So you are thinking of 16 to 20 training sessions a week? Are those times a time for each session or the total times for all the sessions? How much time total each week do you have to train?

Something like this plan may interest you:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Winter Maintenance - 8 Weeks BIKE FOCUS

Duration: 56 days (8 weeks)Detailed Plan: Yes (includes detailed workouts!)
Get ready to ride lots! This plan will raise your bike LT while putting you in the saddle 4-5x per week. This plan will peak at 9 hours of riding and 14-16 hours overall per week. Since this is a bike focus program, your run and swim will be maintenance only (2-3x per week). This program is appropriate for a second year or greater Sprint, Olympic or 1/2 IM athlete who is looking to improve their bike performance.

Min Bike: 30m (duration) / Max Bike: 3h 30m (duration)
Min Run: 30m (duration) / Max Run: 1h 30m (duration)
Min Swim: 1828.80M (dist) 40m (duration) / Max Swim: 4663.44M (dist) 1h 40m (duration)

[ROW]

I just don't think I could let up my running and swimming like that so much. I still need to get better at swimming. I've been swimming 2-3 times aweek for the past 7 years and I can average 1:30-1:45 p/100m in OW, but thats still not fast enough. I think if I built up right, it would balance. I'm guessing most weeks would be about 18 hours a week. This summer I averaged about 11 hours and that didn't feel to bad.

For example this is rough: ( one of the first weeks of tri base)

Monday- recovery day AM 40' run PM 60' ride 30' str
Tuesday- AM 35' run PM 60' swim
Wednesday- AM 90' ride PM 90' swim 30' str
Thursday- AM 90' ride PM 60' swim 30' str
Friday- AM 60' run PM 90' ride
Saturday- AM 120' swim PM 120' ride
Sunday- AM 90' swim, PM Brick, 60' ride, 30' run
Bike: 8h 30min
Swim: 7h
Run: 2h 45 min
= 18h 15 min

But when March comes, i'll be able to get in the pool any morning I want. Plus as I progress through the winter, my runs will get longer.

[Annelizabeth]

When I read this all I can think about is wow to be young and have all that time. Enjoy your youth!

Where you at lakeside today? I saw somebody whom I thought might be you but a middleaged woman asking you if where a manic with all your friends around would be a tad odd eh?

[ROW]

When I read this all I can think about is wow to be young and have all that time. Enjoy your youth!

Where you at lakeside today? I saw somebody whom I thought might be you but a middleaged woman asking you if where a manic with all your friends around would be a tad odd eh?

Haha I wouldn't of minded. I was actually so stressed that day, with the oat official saying I wasn't able to use my clip less pedals, and the fact that the water was soo cold and I had to swim that without a wetsuit.

I do have time for this. I can fit in my school work and everything, and I only work 2-3x a week. It's just a rough idea, honestly I don't know if it's too much for me or not. I know of a guy who went to the youth olympics this year and he was 16 and spent over 21 hours a week training. So I think around 16-20 hours would be good for this year.

[दिवंगत]

For example this is rough: ( one of the first weeks of tri base)

Monday- recovery day AM 40' run PM 60' ride 30' str
Tuesday- AM 35' run PM 60' swim
Wednesday- AM 90' ride PM 90' swim 30' str
Thursday- AM 90' ride PM 60' swim 30' str
Friday- AM 60' run PM 90' ride
Saturday- AM 120' swim PM 120' ride
Sunday- AM 90' swim, PM Brick, 60' ride, 30' run
Bike: 8h 30min
Swim: 7h
Run: 2h 45 min
= 18h 15 min

Unsustainable, IMO. If this is base building, what are you building towards, 30hr weeks?

[eme]

For example this is rough: ( one of the first weeks of tri base)

Monday- recovery day AM 40' run PM 60' ride 30' str
Tuesday- AM 35' run PM 60' swim
Wednesday- AM 90' ride PM 90' swim 30' str
Thursday- AM 90' ride PM 60' swim 30' str
Friday- AM 60' run PM 90' ride
Saturday- AM 120' swim PM 120' ride
Sunday- AM 90' swim, PM Brick, 60' ride, 30' run
Bike: 8h 30min
Swim: 7h
Run: 2h 45 min
= 18h 15 min

Unsustainable, IMO. If this is base building, what are you building towards, 30hr weeks?

Very good point. For HIM training, while working full time (and a few hours a week at my part time job) I topped out at about 15 hours a week.

[MINITEE]

For example this is rough: ( one of the first weeks of tri base)

Monday- recovery day AM 40' run PM 60' ride 30' str
Tuesday- AM 35' run PM 60' swim
Wednesday- AM 90' ride PM 90' swim 30' str
Thursday- AM 90' ride PM 60' swim 30' str
Friday- AM 60' run PM 90' ride
Saturday- AM 120' swim PM 120' ride
Sunday- AM 90' swim, PM Brick, 60' ride, 30' run
Bike: 8h 30min
Swim: 7h
Run: 2h 45 min
= 18h 15 min

Unsustainable, IMO. If this is base building, what are you building towards, 30hr weeks?

Very good point. For HIM training, while working full time (and a few hours a week at my part time job) I topped out at about 15 hours a week.

Ditto...

Base building is working on all of your skills over the off season. Improving your swim (stroke correction, time trials, endurance) Cycling - single leg drills, mid-length trainer rides, and running - working on form, keeping/maintaining weekly levels etc...

At least this is how my coach has planned my off season the past few winters.

Spring is the time for the plan you have above...

[La]

I would defer to your coach. I have no idea how much is appropriate for a teenager who wants to become more competitive in triathlon, so I wouldn't even begin to suggest a training plan. Also, have you hooked up with a triathlon-specific training group in your area? One that develops kids? I would start there.

[scrumhalfgirl]

I would defer to your coach. I have no idea how much is appropriate for a teenager who wants to become more competitive in triathlon, so I wouldn't even begin to suggest a training plan. Also, have you hooked up with a triathlon-specific training group in your area? One that develops kids? I would start there.

Agreed. Anyone who wants to train 15+ hours a week needs to do so with a specified plan in mind, whether coach created or not. Just piling on lots of hours without a structure is a recipe for overtraining, or at the very least, not making the most of the work you're doing.

[दिवंगत]

I realised I didn't really answer your question, so here's my base building plan.

Swim: Start OW swimming when the water is warm enough, maybe mid May if I'm lucky. (okay, I'm not a good role model for swim training... )

Bike = 3 rides per week;
1 x steady effort on the trainer, around 90min to start with, building to 2.5 hours around the time I can ride outside again.
2 x intervals/spinervals/sufferfest/ladders; basically anything I can think of that gets my intensity up and interest level in the workout engaged. These sessions rarely last for more than an hour plus 10min w/u and 10min c/d
Optional - 1 x easy spin listening to music at an easy, steady effort. Sometime an hour, sometimes 40min, sometimes 20min, whatever I feel like.

Run = 3 runs per week;
1 x long run at anything between 13k to 20k. Build gently over the base building period. I like to get to focused training in the spring with the ability to comfortably run for 100min
1 x tempo type run, a steady state effort. Not true, structured effort, more steady state holding a pace a little tougher than easy. I build these from 8k to around 13k.
1 x easy run, usually off the bike as a transition run. Easy.
Optional - one more easy run, if I feel like and I usually don't.

Remember; base building is designed to get to ready to train, it isn't training per se. The program you outlined in your first post is practically Ironman volume, there are sub-10 finishers that don't do that much volume! I won't be doing that much volume training for IMC next year. Trust me, you will burnout if you try to do that program for more than a few months.

This is what I do. However, before you go any further, read my signature line.

[eljeffe]

Your base building plan looks like one of my "training camp" weeks for Ironman, except we don't swim or run that much volume.

Also, 4:10-4:40 p/km isn't MY easy pace. Try and add at least a minute on there. We run slow on our easy workouts, so that you can really hammer where it counts in the hard workouts (and on race day).

[ROW]

I was looking over the plan, and the bike at that time is a little much. I am getting a coach sometime this winter, or march. Theres no junior tri clubs close enough. It may see high in volume because of the swimming.

Some of you may train 15 hours a week for a ironman or half ironman, but I really want to compete at a high level. I've always thought you should be doing more in a base period since it's not high impact training at that point, or that may just be running. The problem is, my bike is very weak, my running somewhat okay, and my swimming is somewhat okay. Since I was only swimming usually 1-3 hours a week this summer because of no ways to get the to the pool etc, I was on the bike 7-8 hours a week. I improved, but my riding speeds aren't where I want them.

Basically I want to start with 4x run, 5x ride, 5x swim, with the swimming maintained, but the cycling and running to get to higher intensities +longer durations ( ez/steady paces getting faster)

I do put a lot of thought into this, and I don't think I need a coach in my base period, but definatley the end of the base period/ all season.

Would this seem more reasonable for the first 3 weeks or so?
4x run, 30', 35, 30' brick, 45' long
5x ride, 45' drill, 45' intense, 60' intense, 60 brick, 75-90' long
5x swim 60' HS prac, 90' club prac, 60' HS prac, 120' Club prac, 90-120' Y swim
Plus some strength added in.

And eljef-fe my reasoning to running down to 4:10 pace is because i've noticed in a lot of runners who in base phase usually just run at a steady pace and only go easy when they need too and have had drastic improvements. Steady running does not take a lot out of you imo. I could run at 4:10 p/km for 8km and not feel like a tempo. If I did have to go easy, I would.

[eme]

This might be a good start for you:

http://www.triathlonontario.com/hm/inside.php?sid=66&id=812

It is a about an hour and a half/two hours away from you, but it might be worth it if you are serious. It would also give you a chance to get in contact with the high level junior coaches in Ontario.

Maybe someone would be able to car pool?

[दिवंगत]

Would this seem more reasonable for the first 3 weeks or so?
4x run, 30', 35, 30' brick, 45' long
5x ride, 45' drill, 45' intense, 60' intense, 60 brick, 75-90' long
5x swim 60' HS prac, 90' club prac, 60' HS prac, 120' Club prac, 90-120' Y swim
Plus some strength added in.

You're still thinking training instead of base building. What you have here is your spring program after building the base through the winter that will allow you to do it.

[ROW]

Would this seem more reasonable for the first 3 weeks or so?
4x run, 30', 35, 30' brick, 45' long
5x ride, 45' drill, 45' intense, 60' intense, 60 brick, 75-90' long
5x swim 60' HS prac, 90' club prac, 60' HS prac, 120' Club prac, 90-120' Y swim
Plus some strength added in.

You're still thinking training instead of base building. What you have here is your spring program after building the base through the winter that will allow you to do it.

So how is base building be then? I've always thought base building was building up a big aerobic base to supplement your season when you have to get into the intense stuff.

[दिवंगत]

Would this seem more reasonable for the first 3 weeks or so?
4x run, 30', 35, 30' brick, 45' long
5x ride, 45' drill, 45' intense, 60' intense, 60 brick, 75-90' long
5x swim 60' HS prac, 90' club prac, 60' HS prac, 120' Club prac, 90-120' Y swim
Plus some strength added in.

You're still thinking training instead of base building. What you have here is your spring program after building the base through the winter that will allow you to do it.

So how is base building be then? I've always thought base building was building up a big aerobic base to supplement your season when you have to get into the intense stuff.

It is. But, the volume you're proposing is going to be catabolic instead of anabolic. It will break you down instead of build you up. You have five rides per week, three of which you describe as intense (drills are intense) and then a long ride. You claim to run easy at 4:10/k but your race results don't support that assertion and you plan to run three times a week at that pace!

You have to be patient with base building. I am going to take most of November off, then I'll begin a gentle rebuild along the lines of what I posted above. You, on the other hand, are now going into CC season - when are you going to rest?

Triathlon success comes from a strong bike, and you can build that base over the winter. Slowly. Carefully. By all means ride four or five times a week; but cut out three of the runs. Make most of your base building riding be steady state time-in-the-saddle-listening-to-music-watching-movies type riding. Only when your body has adapted to the time in the saddle can it then addapt to the intensity you add later.

Someone once said that "speed work is the icing on the cake - you don't have a cake yet" and it applies to you here. Go bake a cake and we'll talk about intensity in February. I've got lots of stuff for you to do then.

Be patient.

[ROW]

I'm taking 2 week off after xc, so it will be mid november when I start up again. Running once a week? Thats not enough. That would be the point on where I would lose fitness. 4:10kms feel easy. But thats when I feel good, as in speeding up in a run. Thats what you do in base. Just solid aerobic tuning. But what I posted above is that when you when in a more steady pace, you seem to get a lot faster in the base period.

I don't think most elite junior triathletes run once a week. No offence, but it just doesn't seem logical. 3 times a week at the least.

Also what about running? I still need to get alot better in that. I just can't start running 1 time a week, i'll never improve.

EDIT: I found this
Athlete Biography: Brook Powell
I first took up triathlon at age eight; I tried it out and loved it. I have a family background in sport; both my mom and dad were competitive swimmers. My dad was a high level swimmer. The person who has had the most influence on my sporting career is Kelly Guest.
I currently train in Victoria, BC, and during an average training week I spend 10-12 hours swimming, six to nine hours biking, and four to five hours running. My personal best swim time (1500m) is 16:30. I have helped out with Coach Kelly’s Kids Triathlon. My favorite ITU race, from what I’ve seen, is most likely Hamburg because of the crowd being so awesome. My triathlon goals are to compete in the Olympics, as well as the World Cup series. Something the triathlon world may not know about me is that I can dance.

[eljeffe]

And eljef-fe my reasoning to running down to 4:10 pace is because i've noticed in a lot of runners who in base phase usually just run at a steady pace and only go easy when they need too and have had drastic improvements. Steady running does not take a lot out of you imo. I could run at 4:10 p/km for 8km and not feel like a tempo. If I did have to go easy, I would.

I just saw a race report you wrote where you ran 4k in 19:13, averaging 4:48/k. I know in my case, (even in my terrible races) race pace is at least 1 minute/km faster than my easy pace, some times as much as 90seconds/km faster. So if I run 4:15/k off the bike like I just did in my last 2 races, my easy runs right now should be about 5:15-5:30/k. Last year I was generally running under 4:00/k off the bike and most my easy runs were slower than 5:30/k. But when I ran hard, I ran intervals under 3:30/k.

You can never run your easy/base/recovery runs too slow, but you can easily run them too hard. If you run your easy runs too hard, it's easy to tell because you won't be able to run very fast at the track or in your races. One trick I use is to bring my slow poke dog with me, he can't go very fast, so it makes me run slow and easy.

[दिवंगत]

Thats what you do in base. Just solid aerobic tuning. But what I posted above is that when you when in a more steady pace, you seem to get a lot faster in the base period.

Why ask when you already have the answers? It seems like you have it all figured out big guy, no more input needed from me. Good luck.

[ROW]

Sorry 1ironatatime, I didn't mean it like that. I'm just so confused. I see elite guys, or guys my age going out and just trying to swim, bike, run 5x a week each on there blogs and stuff, and that seems right to me. But then riding 5-6x a week and running once, i'm just so confused. I guess thats where a coach comes in. Sorry if I seem if I am arguing back, I don't mean it like that.

And Eljef-fe, that was from my last triathlon. Calves were tight a couples days before, I couldn't get them loose enough, and my left one ended up tightening up on me. In my first triathlon I averaged 4:14 km's on a hilly course. I know your current fitness is your last race, but that just was not a good race all together. Thursday, I did a brick 13.5/4km and did a 15:59 4km off the bike. Also I did a 18:19 4.7km off the bike as well the week or so before. To me 4:10 km's just feel like a steady pace, nothing more. Once I reach 3:55-4:05 that feels more like a tempo pace. And yeah, the slow pace makes sense. I don't generally run over 5 min k's just because I don't feel the need too. I did my recovery runs this summer at about 5:10-5:20 per km. And my easy runs were around 4:55. But i've been starting to get a lot faster recently, and my body usually starts around over 5 min k's, but I usually end up averaging around 4:40 k's. I just go by feel no matter what. No pace zones or anything. If I feel tired, I go slow, if I feel good, I pick it up a bit.

[La]

Due to your location you may not be able to join a club, but you could still benefit from getting coaching advice remotely (phone, e-mail). Get in contact with one of the big clubs in S.Ontario that focuses on youth development. You might have to drive to them once for an assessment, but then they can probably coach you virtually after that.

[HCcD]

Due to your location you may not be able to join a club, but you could still benefit from getting coaching advice remotely (phone, e-mail). Get in contact with one of the big clubs in S.Ontario that focuses on youth development. You might have to drive to them once for an assessment, but then they can probably coach you virtually after that.

The only certified local KOS program in the Ottawa Area is the Bytown Triathlon Storm http://www.bytowntriathlon.com/Home.html ... You may want to send them an e-mail, for Q's & A's and/or even online coaching services ....

[La]

Due to your location you may not be able to join a club, but you could still benefit from getting coaching advice remotely (phone, e-mail). Get in contact with one of the big clubs in S.Ontario that focuses on youth development. You might have to drive to them once for an assessment, but then they can probably coach you virtually after that.

The only certified local KOS program in the Ottawa Area is the Bytown Triathlon Storm http://www.bytowntriathlon.com/Home.html ... You may want to send them an e-mail, for Q's & A's and/or even online coaching services ....

Hamilton (Hammerheads) is closer to him and they have a very strong youth development program.

[HCcD]

Due to your location you may not be able to join a club, but you could still benefit from getting coaching advice remotely (phone, e-mail). Get in contact with one of the big clubs in S.Ontario that focuses on youth development. You might have to drive to them once for an assessment, but then they can probably coach you virtually after that.

The only certified local KOS program in the Ottawa Area is the Bytown Triathlon Storm http://www.bytowntriathlon.com/Home.html ... You may want to send them an e-mail, for Q's & A's and/or even online coaching services ....

Hamilton (Hammerheads) is closer to him and they have a very strong youth development program.

'K, you win ...

And, there's always Barrie Shepley, Simon's old Coach, if I recall with C3online [url]Barrie Shepley[/url]