Lately, as I'm sure you've all noticed, we seem to have dropped off in the "mutual respect" department. There have been a lot of petty arguments and personal insults going around.
This has never been ok on RM so I'm not sure what has changed besides our growth and perhaps becoming too comfortable with each other.
A number of people have expressed concern about it, both publicly and privately. The mods have been discussing it and looking for solutions, but we thought we should throw it out there to get all your input and feelings on the matter.
How do we correct this problem and keep RM the positive place we've come to enjoy?
What would you guys like to see happen?
problem solving
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ultraslacker
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problem solving
"You're an ultrarunner, normal rules don't apply to you." (Doonst)
First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do. ~Epictetus
First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do. ~Epictetus
nothing - i fear this comes with growth
we are a family and families disagree, sometimes with inappropriate language - i will admit i am not as frequent a poster on RM as i used to be but I have not read anything that required an apology and did not get it same day....so unless the post is really really out of line and contains a personal attack or slur, i say let it go, maybe a mod reminder (as we get at the moment) but certainly no need for censorship nor revoking any posters privilege to post
i for one just ignore anything that i feel is not constructive, that being said i ignore a lot of my own childish posts, and i hope others do the same
and if, like me, you have a need to let the inner child speak use the darned - saves a lot explanation i think
we are a family and families disagree, sometimes with inappropriate language - i will admit i am not as frequent a poster on RM as i used to be but I have not read anything that required an apology and did not get it same day....so unless the post is really really out of line and contains a personal attack or slur, i say let it go, maybe a mod reminder (as we get at the moment) but certainly no need for censorship nor revoking any posters privilege to post
i for one just ignore anything that i feel is not constructive, that being said i ignore a lot of my own childish posts, and i hope others do the same
and if, like me, you have a need to let the inner child speak use the darned
- saves a lot explanation i think-
Portentous
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As one of the combatants in the other thread, and who can be insulting at times, (but has been on good behavior for a long time... I think 
), I have a couple of things to point out.
It's ok to have different viewpoints. Otherwise the world would be a very boring place to live. But, IMO it's wrong to start telling people to shut up when you don't agree with their viewpoint. That's what got me started last time. I believe in being civil & supportive to most forumites, but if someone turns a topic into a personal attack on me, I'm not the type of guy to either turn the other cheek, or PM a sob story to queen Holly.
But, I do agree that personal attacks are totally out of place on the board.
***Edited to add: Ooops, I guess I wasn't involved in this incident. I assume it involved race relations. Only advice I can give is either allow the open discussion of such issues (as touchy as they may get), or ban any talk of color/sex/religion and possibly manties.
), I have a couple of things to point out.
It's ok to have different viewpoints. Otherwise the world would be a very boring place to live. But, IMO it's wrong to start telling people to shut up when you don't agree with their viewpoint. That's what got me started last time. I believe in being civil & supportive to most forumites, but if someone turns a topic into a personal attack on me, I'm not the type of guy to either turn the other cheek, or PM a sob story to queen Holly.
But, I do agree that personal attacks are totally out of place on the board.
***Edited to add: Ooops, I guess I wasn't involved in this incident. I assume it involved race relations. Only advice I can give is either allow the open discussion of such issues (as touchy as they may get), or ban any talk of color/sex/religion and possibly manties.
Last edited by Portentous on Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ultraslacker
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Midge wrote:nothing - i fear this comes with growth
but if we just let it go, don't you think we'll continue to slide downward so that eventually we're just like every other unmoderated forum? that's my fear. If RM is going to become a place where this kind of thing is ok, then I'll shut it down right now.
I have not read anything that required an apology and did not get it same day....
I have. ;)
so unless the post is really really out of line and contains a personal attack or slur, i say let it go, maybe a mod reminder (as we get at the moment) but certainly no need for censorship nor revoking any posters privilege to post
There have been frequent mod reminders in the past few weeks. They are not helping.
"You're an ultrarunner, normal rules don't apply to you." (Doonst)
First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do. ~Epictetus
First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do. ~Epictetus
I am glad this is being brought up and i do think it needs to be addressed, but not by the mods (who do an excellent job IMO), by the ENTIRE community.
My thought is that sometimes people have different levels of comfort with language, so to one person using swear words is not offensive, it is par for the course, while for others it is very offensive (btw- i fall in the very offensive category, i rarely swear and reserve it for extreme situations). As such, i did find use of swearing (or whatever was said in that one thread, swearing without the actual spelling of the words) to be a very offensive thing to say, whereas i don't think that some people even batted an eye. I didn't take that personally, since i was personally not involved, but i can see why some people would be totally turned off by the thread.
I also find comments made about "slow" runners by a few people to be personally offensive, whether because i am self-concious about being slow perhaps, or maybe because it makes this forum seem elitist to newer runners or slower runners.
Whatever the case, i must admit i have not "recommended" RM to runners i meet lately, because frankly some of the posts have made me a bit embarrassed to be a part of this community. I do think this is a very small minority of posters, but I do think it is happening. I don't pretend to know the cause, or to not take personal blame for a small part of it (since hey- i am not perfect either and i am sure i have somewhere upset/hurt/angered people with my posts). However, do i want it to stop, most definately, i miss reading intelligent debates that didn't result in petty arguments.
But- overall, i get way more
out of RM then 
!!
My thought is that sometimes people have different levels of comfort with language, so to one person using swear words is not offensive, it is par for the course, while for others it is very offensive (btw- i fall in the very offensive category, i rarely swear and reserve it for extreme situations). As such, i did find use of swearing (or whatever was said in that one thread, swearing without the actual spelling of the words) to be a very offensive thing to say, whereas i don't think that some people even batted an eye. I didn't take that personally, since i was personally not involved, but i can see why some people would be totally turned off by the thread.
I also find comments made about "slow" runners by a few people to be personally offensive, whether because i am self-concious about being slow perhaps, or maybe because it makes this forum seem elitist to newer runners or slower runners.
Whatever the case, i must admit i have not "recommended" RM to runners i meet lately, because frankly some of the posts have made me a bit embarrassed to be a part of this community. I do think this is a very small minority of posters, but I do think it is happening. I don't pretend to know the cause, or to not take personal blame for a small part of it (since hey- i am not perfect either and i am sure i have somewhere upset/hurt/angered people with my posts). However, do i want it to stop, most definately, i miss reading intelligent debates that didn't result in petty arguments.
But- overall, i get way more
out of RM then !!-
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Someone once said .... Would you rather be Happy or Right ? There is no absolute "Right" or "Wrong" Answers ...
As have been said, We are all an experiment of "One" .... What may or may not work for others may not necessarily work or not work for someone else ... Which is why, "running" is so cool ... we all bring to the line what we are able to bring "in the moment" ... and, in the end, it doesn't really matter, except how we feel about ourselves ....
In most case we are all posting personal opinions, thoughts and, in many cases personal experiences .... and, sometimes it is so frustrating or annoying when someone response ... "You are wrong ...." which usually translates to the person who posted as .. "I am right ...."
Whether I or you agree or disagree with someone else on a certain point of view, action, decision, etc, is that each person's perogative (sp??) ... and, in the end, I/we will still respect that person ....
I kind of like that question that has been going around a bit ... "What does it mean to me?" or "How does that affect me ?" or "How does that affect my life ?"
and, I choose to be Happy ...
As have been said, We are all an experiment of "One" .... What may or may not work for others may not necessarily work or not work for someone else ... Which is why, "running" is so cool ... we all bring to the line what we are able to bring "in the moment" ... and, in the end, it doesn't really matter, except how we feel about ourselves ....
In most case we are all posting personal opinions, thoughts and, in many cases personal experiences .... and, sometimes it is so frustrating or annoying when someone response ... "You are wrong ...." which usually translates to the person who posted as .. "I am right ...."
Whether I or you agree or disagree with someone else on a certain point of view, action, decision, etc, is that each person's perogative (sp??) ... and, in the end, I/we will still respect that person ....
I kind of like that question that has been going around a bit ... "What does it mean to me?" or "How does that affect me ?" or "How does that affect my life ?"
and, I choose to be Happy ...
Last edited by HCcD on Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ultraslacker
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Portentous wrote:***Edited to add: Ooops, I guess I wasn't involved in this incident. I assume it involved race relations. Only advice I can give is either allow the open discussion of such issues (as touchy as they may get), or ban any talk of color/sex/religion and possibly manties.
I'm not talking about one incident. I'm talking about MANY incidents over the past few weeks and months.
"You're an ultrarunner, normal rules don't apply to you." (Doonst)
First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do. ~Epictetus
First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do. ~Epictetus
Don't be afraid of bouncing posts. We have very few rules and they are very reasonable. If someone crosses over the line, bounce the e-mail and let them know why. If they continue to do it, suspend them or ban them.
It's a mug's game arguing, especially when arguing on the internet. Do these people really think that after you've stated your reasons many times over and then called the other person an idiot that they are somehow going to turn around and then say "Gee. You are right and I was wrong." You just have to realize you are not going to convince everyone you are right, so accept it and move on.
If you want to argue stuff, go to the Globe and Mail site and post your comments on their articles or find some other site that allows peeing contests. (Oh yeah, even if you win a peeing contest, you are usually still covered in pee, so winning is not that great.)
It's a mug's game arguing, especially when arguing on the internet. Do these people really think that after you've stated your reasons many times over and then called the other person an idiot that they are somehow going to turn around and then say "Gee. You are right and I was wrong." You just have to realize you are not going to convince everyone you are right, so accept it and move on.
If you want to argue stuff, go to the Globe and Mail site and post your comments on their articles or find some other site that allows peeing contests. (Oh yeah, even if you win a peeing contest, you are usually still covered in pee, so winning is not that great.)
"A true conservationist is a man who knows that the world is not given by his fathers but borrowed from his children." - John James Audubon
"The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world that it leaves to its children." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer
"I was watching the London Marathon and saw one runner dressed as a chicken and another runner dressed as an egg. I thought: 'This could be interesting'." - Paddy Lennox
"There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast!" - author unknown
"The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world that it leaves to its children." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer
"I was watching the London Marathon and saw one runner dressed as a chicken and another runner dressed as an egg. I thought: 'This could be interesting'." - Paddy Lennox
"There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast!" - author unknown
Good topic Holly.
I have read some posts that seemed to be over the top as ell.
It isn't just here though. It is an internet problem. Because there is no way to read facial expression, voice tone, or those other intangible signals available through face to face conversation there are times when too much ( or too little ) is read into the words that appear.
Because of this we all have to be vigilant about our word choices and the message we are sending to the people reading the postings.
Be nice people - it is amazing how much "niceness" you get back!!
I have read some posts that seemed to be over the top as ell.
It isn't just here though. It is an internet problem. Because there is no way to read facial expression, voice tone, or those other intangible signals available through face to face conversation there are times when too much ( or too little ) is read into the words that appear.
Because of this we all have to be vigilant about our word choices and the message we are sending to the people reading the postings.
Be nice people - it is amazing how much "niceness" you get back!!
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ultraslacker
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drghfx wrote:Don't be afraid of bouncing posts. We have very few rules and they are very reasonable. If someone crosses over the line, bounce the e-mail and let them know why. If they continue to do it, suspend them or ban them.
This is the direction that I am tempted to go... but I know that some people don't like the flavour that takes--when do we cross the line into censorship, etc.?
"You're an ultrarunner, normal rules don't apply to you." (Doonst)
First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do. ~Epictetus
First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do. ~Epictetus
I try not to take stuff too personally, especially when it's written on the internet. Usually if I read something that I find offensive I just role my eyes, and continue reading elsewhere. There certainly hasn't been a time when I've thought of leaving RM because of it. But I think recently some people have been crossing the line with their argumentative posts. If you want to be combative, there are lots of other sites on the internet you can post to. I have always enjoyed RM because it is such a friendly, welcoming place and I would be very sorry if that ever changed. BTW, not all families fight and quarrel, so that's not an excuse for doing here on RM.
"I'm not sufficiently organized or ambitious to do all the things you're supposed to do if you're serious. The more time you spend fiddlediddling with this and that, the less time there is to run." ED WHITLOCK
klewlis wrote:drghfx wrote:Don't be afraid of bouncing posts. We have very few rules and they are very reasonable. If someone crosses over the line, bounce the e-mail and let them know why. If they continue to do it, suspend them or ban them.
This is the direction that I am tempted to go... but I know that some people don't like the flavour that takes--when do we cross the line into censorship, etc.?
This is a problem. When the mods/admins do edit or remove a post, the community doesn't always know why -- and of course we're curious as all-get-out. We may look at the source of the post and think "I know that person and he would NEVER say anything out of line -- I think this is CENSORSHIP!" ... this can lead to a group rallying around the injured party and the membership is divided.
But if the mods DON'T edit or remove the offending post, then we might cry "FOUL! So-and-so is getting special treatment because the mods LIKE HER! Why is there one rule for everyone else and a different rule for HER?" ... this can lead to a group calling for the head of the offending party and the membership is divided.
Just another reason I'm glad I'm not a Mod.
BG
klewlis wrote:drghfx wrote:Don't be afraid of bouncing posts. We have very few rules and they are very reasonable. If someone crosses over the line, bounce the e-mail and let them know why. If they continue to do it, suspend them or ban them.
This is the direction that I am tempted to go... but I know that some people don't like the flavour that takes--when do we cross the line into censorship, etc.?
I don't know where you would draw the line... And when I look back at some posts that shocked me, usually the poster itself is not a bad person, they just feel so strongly about their point of view that they become impolite and insult other people.
I can think of a dozen posts that shocked me or made me angry. I can't think about one RM member that is always mean to other people, which would justify banning this person from RM. And that is one big part of the problem: most people are nice 99% of the time, but if they participate in a heated debate on something they care about so much, then they become self-defensive and insult other people. Do you ban someone because they're mean 1% of the time and nice 99% of the time?
I don't know...
I know I've been mean to someone at least once, and I would have hated to be banned from the forum because of that one post.
"Keep Going. Never Give Up" - Spencer
"Have a little faith in yourself and watch the magic begin" - Ironboy
Plans for 2014:
Run for Women 5K, May 11
Ottawa Race Weekend 10K, May 24
"Have a little faith in yourself and watch the magic begin" - Ironboy
Plans for 2014:
Run for Women 5K, May 11
Ottawa Race Weekend 10K, May 24
Unfortunately, that's not the only place heated topics are posted.postmark wrote:Hi. Nobody will like this suggestion, but it might help a lot.
Get rid of the NRR forum. If somebody wants to start their own RunningManiaSocial.com forum, then NRR conversations and arguments can stay there and keep this site free of it.
Life is short. Stop whining!!- Jwolf
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ultraslacker
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running angel wrote:Unfortunately, that's not the only place heated topics are posted.postmark wrote:Hi. Nobody will like this suggestion, but it might help a lot.
Get rid of the NRR forum. If somebody wants to start their own RunningManiaSocial.com forum, then NRR conversations and arguments can stay there and keep this site free of it.
lately they've mostly been in the GRD!
"You're an ultrarunner, normal rules don't apply to you." (Doonst)
First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do. ~Epictetus
First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do. ~Epictetus
klewlis wrote:running angel wrote:Unfortunately, that's not the only place heated topics are posted.postmark wrote:Hi. Nobody will like this suggestion, but it might help a lot.
Get rid of the NRR forum. If somebody wants to start their own RunningManiaSocial.com forum, then NRR conversations and arguments can stay there and keep this site free of it.
lately they've mostly been in the GRD!
and some in Training.
In fact I can only remember one controversial thread in NRR recently, but it didn't result in the kind of personal insults that have been in the other threads. Also, the threads in NRR are generally fun and postitive, so getting rid of that forum would be an extreme case of throwing out the baby with the bath water.
Back to the original question: I don't have any suggestions about how to fix this issue. It's been addressed before, but sadly sometimes people just don't care how much they are hurting others. Sometimes it's a case of misunderstanding or overreaction, but usually those are cleared up pretty quickly. Those I don't have a problem with. But the personal insults can be very hurtful.
Last edited by Jwolf on Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What bothers me is that if two people are having a discussion (or arguing) why do others feel the need to get involved? Why don't people just close the thread and move on? Let's pretend that I have offended Holly in a thread. Why is it anyone else's business to tell me? Or anyone else's business to comment on it? If Holly is bothered/upset/offended she should tell me, hopefully in a private fashion.
Regarding correcting the problem, I don't know if there is anything that would work. What offends one doesn't offend another. I say if you aren't personally affected, butt out and keep your two cents to yourself. But if you are bothered by something, use that exclamation point at the top right corner. Let the mods take care of it, that's what they're there for.
Regarding correcting the problem, I don't know if there is anything that would work. What offends one doesn't offend another. I say if you aren't personally affected, butt out and keep your two cents to yourself. But if you are bothered by something, use that exclamation point at the top right corner. Let the mods take care of it, that's what they're there for.
IronColl wrote:What bothers me is that if two people are having a discussion (or arguing) why do others feel the need to get involved?
This is a discussion forum, so rarely are there cases where it is only back and forth between two people, and if there are, then they should be taking place in private anyway. It's a public forum so others are entitled to express opiniong.
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Someone has suggested temporary suspension periods for people who blatantly break the rules. Say, a 2 day cooling off period. (and I mean for the cases where someone directly insults, flames, etc... not just for saying something that *might* be offensive to *someone*.)
What would you guys think of that?
What would you guys think of that?
"You're an ultrarunner, normal rules don't apply to you." (Doonst)
First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do. ~Epictetus
First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do. ~Epictetus
IronColl wrote:What bothers me is that if two people are having a discussion (or arguing) why do others feel the need to get involved? Why don't people just close the thread and move on? Let's pretend that I have offended Holly in a thread. Why is it anyone else's business to tell me? Or anyone else's business to comment on it? If Holly is bothered/upset/offended she should tell me, hopefully in a private fashion.
Regarding correcting the problem, I don't know if there is anything that would work. What offends one doesn't offend another. I say if you aren't personally affected, butt out and keep your two cents to yourself. But if you are bothered by something, use that exclamation point at the top right corner. Let the mods take care of it, that's what they're there for.
Absolutely, Colleen ... I have noticed sometimes, it seems when Person A and Person B have agreed to disagreed, then suddenly Person C decides to get involved and side with one of the two other person(s) and attempts to answer on their behalf, what the other person may or may have not meant ... then, all of a sudden it becomes divisional as sides are taken ....
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klewlis wrote:Someone has suggested temporary suspension periods for people who blatantly break the rules. Say, a 2 day cooling off period. (and I mean for the cases where someone directly insults, flames, etc... not just for saying something that *might* be offensive to *someone*.)
What would you guys think of that?
Like a penalty box ???
where all parties involved will be suspended ???Race Results: http://itsmyrun.com/index.php?display=p ... unner=HCiD
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ultraslacker
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HCiD wrote:klewlis wrote:Someone has suggested temporary suspension periods for people who blatantly break the rules. Say, a 2 day cooling off period. (and I mean for the cases where someone directly insults, flames, etc... not just for saying something that *might* be offensive to *someone*.)
What would you guys think of that?
Like a penalty box ??? :roll: where all parties involved will be suspended ???
as in, their accounts would be de-activated for a given time--they could still read RM but couldn't post or send pm's until the account is re-activated.
too much?
"You're an ultrarunner, normal rules don't apply to you." (Doonst)
First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do. ~Epictetus
First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do. ~Epictetus
Interesting idea. I think it would have to be very black and white what is acceptable and what isn't.
My husband is a moderator on a message forum and what they do when topics get heated is throw them in a separate "heated discussion forum". If the discussion continues, so be it, but at least the topic is removed from the mainstream.
My husband is a moderator on a message forum and what they do when topics get heated is throw them in a separate "heated discussion forum". If the discussion continues, so be it, but at least the topic is removed from the mainstream.
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