Is less more?

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dgrant
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Re: Is less more?

Postby dgrant » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:13 pm

Garrett wrote:
ROW wrote:Kirsten Vergara, a 13 year old girl only runs 3-4 days a week...

I was about 50m behind her w/ 400m to go in the STW 5k this year and was presented with a lose/lose situation. Either finish behind a 13y/o girl, or be an **** and out kick a 13y/o girl...

...it was an easy choice:
Image

Robbie-T wrote:the male and female winners, each of them said the biggest change they have made to their training as Masters is to rest more, cross train more and only run 3-4 runs a week.

This probably works great after years of building a solid running base.


Sweet. Hopefully next year you can beat blue hat lady!

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Re: Is less more?

Postby Darth Tater » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:05 pm

dgrant wrote:
Garrett wrote:
ROW wrote:Kirsten Vergara, a 13 year old girl only runs 3-4 days a week...

I was about 50m behind her w/ 400m to go in the STW 5k this year and was presented with a lose/lose situation. Either finish behind a 13y/o girl, or be an **** and out kick a 13y/o girl...

...it was an easy choice:
Image

Robbie-T wrote:the male and female winners, each of them said the biggest change they have made to their training as Masters is to rest more, cross train more and only run 3-4 runs a week.

This probably works great after years of building a solid running base.


Sweet. Hopefully next year you can beat blue hat lady!


...with a fuel belt and two water bottles for a 5K....
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Re: Is less more?

Postby Marg » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:43 pm

Garrett wrote:
ROW wrote:Kirsten Vergara, a 13 year old girl only runs 3-4 days a week...

I was about 50m behind her w/ 400m to go in the STW 5k this year and was presented with a lose/lose situation. Either finish behind a 13y/o girl, or be an **** and out kick a 13y/o girl...

...it was an easy choice:
Image





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Re: Is less more?

Postby RayMan » Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:24 pm

Anyway to get the thread back on track...I sustained the only injury of my running career doing speedwork on a track under a cold February moon...the hamstring has plagued me ever since that night, for almost 3 years.

Since we are training through a Canadian winter I agree with Robbie, do Tempo runs and not Intervals.

I also feel that McShame is where I was at when trying to break a 3:30 marathon, and I reached it by adding miles to the meter...running the Higdon Intermediate program faithfully throughout the summer. I felt those extra 2 days, even if they were Easy Runs (which for me was often faster than Higdon dictates, but it felt easy) gave me the extra gas in the tank to hold a steady pace throughout the marathon.

I know there are maniacs who don't like Higdon's marathon pace Saturdays followed by LSD Sundays, but I feel the two runs gave me the confidence to run long on slightly tired legs.

Good luck McShame keep us in the loop!

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Re: Is less more?

Postby deerdree » Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:49 pm

Darth Tater wrote:
dgrant wrote:
Garrett wrote:I was about 50m behind her w/ 400m to go in the STW 5k this year and was presented with a lose/lose situation. Either finish behind a 13y/o girl, or be an **** and out kick a 13y/o girl...

...it was an easy choice:
Image

Sweet. Hopefully next year you can beat blue hat lady!


...with a fuel belt and two water bottles for a 5K....

blue hat lady wasn't just thirsty, she was running the half marathon. :wink: (they finish on the same course at scotia; note the different colour bib)

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Re: Is less more?

Postby Darth Tater » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:40 pm

Darth Tater wrote:
dgrant wrote:
Garrett wrote:I was about 50m behind her w/ 400m to go in the STW 5k this year and was presented with a lose/lose situation. Either finish behind a 13y/o girl, or be an **** and out kick a 13y/o girl...

...it was an easy choice:
Image

Sweet. Hopefully next year you can beat blue hat lady!


...with a fuel belt and two water bottles for a 5K....

deerdree wrote:blue hat lady wasn't just thirsty, she was running the half marathon. :wink: (they finish on the same course at scotia; note the different colour bib)


:shock:

Half marathon in 18:xx minutes!?!?!? Holy crap! :shock:

:lol:
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Re: Is less more?

Postby mcshame » Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:07 am

Darth Tater wrote:
Darth Tater wrote:
Garrett wrote:I was about 50m behind her w/ 400m to go in the STW 5k this year and was presented with a lose/lose situation. Either finish behind a 13y/o girl, or be an **** and out kick a 13y/o girl...

...it was an easy choice:
Image


...with a fuel belt and two water bottles for a 5K....

deerdree wrote:blue hat lady wasn't just thirsty, she was running the half marathon. :wink: (they finish on the same course at scotia; note the different colour bib)


:shock:

Half marathon in 18:xx minutes!?!?!? Holy crap! :shock:
:lol:


I want what she's drinking! ;)

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Re: Is less more?

Postby Dstew » Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:03 pm

With my own running plan creation - including a couple of 40 K runs with a "fast finish" (marathon pace for the last 5 K) and mostly 3 runs a week, at age 41 I ran a 3:16:59 marathon.

Running 5 + days a week and getting a stress fracture, I ran the next marathon in 3:38.

So the pronoucements of what works best should always end with "but your results may vary".

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Re: Is less more?

Postby MichaelMc » Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:33 pm

Dstew wrote:With my own running plan creation - including a couple of 40 K runs with a "fast finish" (marathon pace for the last 5 K) and mostly 3 runs a week, at age 41 I ran a 3:16:59 marathon.

Running 5 + days a week and getting a stress fracture, I ran the next marathon in 3:38.

So the pronoucements of what works best should always end with "but your results may vary".


Results WILL vary, but incomplete comparisons are no guide. How many miles you run on one plan vs the other, how fast you run them, what surfaces you run on etc will always have an effect. For example (and I have no idea whether this remotely resembles your situation) if a person goes from running 40k per week on three runs and adds two more runs of 8k each, you've just added 40% more running: no shock if that runner developed a stress fracture. If they instead went from running 3x per week @ 40k to running 5x per week at 42k, I'd suggest they'd be at a far LOWER risk of a stress fracture.

I don't know HOW many runners have told me "I can't run more than 50k a week: I always get injured", but I can tell you I have doubled the mileage of many runners I've worked with and not a single one developed a stress fracture. We're talking 50k/week to >100k per week AVERAGE, and many of them HAD gotten stress fractures in the past at much lower mileage. Bones adapt IF you give them time. I don't know about you but intuitively I feel that lower stress more frequently is easier on bones than higher stress in bursts with longer spacing.

There isn't ONE right way, but I strongly resist the perception that mileage is in itself a risk. In my experience it is virtually always too rapid increases in mileage, and that in general SPEED WORK is riskier than volume.

Your results may vary.

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Re: Is less more?

Postby myles » Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:37 pm

has anyone read "Run Less, Run Faster"? I'm always sucked in by promises of running faster :)

Worth picking up??

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Re: Is less more?

Postby Jwolf » Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:50 pm

myles wrote:has anyone read "Run Less, Run Faster"? I'm always sucked in by promises of running faster :)


That's the FIRST program that was referenced before. You can get the programs on-line too.

I don't think this method is going to get you faster than your plan-- stick with what works. :)
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Re: Is less more?

Postby ROW » Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:18 pm

Marg wrote:
Garrett wrote:
ROW wrote:Kirsten Vergara, a 13 year old girl only runs 3-4 days a week...

I was about 50m behind her w/ 400m to go in the STW 5k this year and was presented with a lose/lose situation. Either finish behind a 13y/o girl, or be an **** and out kick a 13y/o girl...

...it was an easy choice:
Image





Giggle.... :lol:
Definatley beating her next year... She'll be in grade 8 and running sub 18, thats crazy she could place top 10 at ofsaa for senior girls. :o

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Re: Is less more?

Postby Dstew » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:53 pm

MichaelMc wrote:
Dstew wrote:With my own running plan creation - including a couple of 40 K runs with a "fast finish" (marathon pace for the last 5 K) and mostly 3 runs a week, at age 41 I ran a 3:16:59 marathon.

Running 5 + days a week and getting a stress fracture, I ran the next marathon in 3:38.

So the pronoucements of what works best should always end with "but your results may vary".


Results WILL vary, but incomplete comparisons are no guide. How many miles you run on one plan vs the other, how fast you run them, what surfaces you run on etc will always have an effect. For example (and I have no idea whether this remotely resembles your situation) if a person goes from running 40k per week on three runs and adds two more runs of 8k each, you've just added 40% more running: no shock if that runner developed a stress fracture. If they instead went from running 3x per week @ 40k to running 5x per week at 42k, I'd suggest they'd be at a far LOWER risk of a stress fracture.

I don't know HOW many runners have told me "I can't run more than 50k a week: I always get injured", but I can tell you I have doubled the mileage of many runners I've worked with and not a single one developed a stress fracture. We're talking 50k/week to >100k per week AVERAGE, and many of them HAD gotten stress fractures in the past at much lower mileage. Bones adapt IF you give them time. I don't know about you but intuitively I feel that lower stress more frequently is easier on bones than higher stress in bursts with longer spacing.

There isn't ONE right way, but I strongly resist the perception that mileage is in itself a risk. In my experience it is virtually always too rapid increases in mileage, and that in general SPEED WORK is riskier than volume.

Your results may vary.



I was not really advocating one approach over the other but merely to state that what works great for some does not work for others.

But as you insisted, I went from a max of 70-80 K per week up to 100 K per week with a combination of 10% increase max in mileage and a decrease in speed. To when I hit 100 K, my only concern was mileage and if I did anything it was to make sure my heart rate was less than 60%, etc in order to slow me down. Exactly the same shoes, weather, surface, etc, etc.

I cannot advocate because in my case, when I winged it and ran too hard for too long but with a minimal amount of frequency I was injury free and set personal bests. When I followed a plan and did things by the book, I suffered a number of injuries.

Or to put this another way, it was asked can one reach goals - qualify for Boston - and run relatively injury free with three days of running per week my answer was that I did that and therefore there is at least one exception to the "accepted" way of doing things.

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Re: Is less more?

Postby MichaelMc » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:34 pm

Dstew wrote:
I was not really advocating one approach over the other but merely to state that what works great for some does not work for others.

But as you insisted, I went from a max of 70-80 K per week up to 100 K per week with a combination of 10% increase max in mileage and a decrease in speed. To when I hit 100 K, my only concern was mileage and if I did anything it was to make sure my heart rate was less than 60%, etc in order to slow me down. Exactly the same shoes, weather, surface, etc, etc.

I cannot advocate because in my case, when I winged it and ran too hard for too long but with a minimal amount of frequency I was injury free and set personal bests. When I followed a plan and did things by the book, I suffered a number of injuries.

Or to put this another way, it was asked can one reach goals - qualify for Boston - and run relatively injury free with three days of running per week my answer was that I did that and therefore there is at least one exception to the "accepted" way of doing things.


As I insisted? Are you saying you were following MY plan? If so it is a shame I didn't know!

I wouldn't suggest someone try to keep their HR <60% on easy runs, my basic "easy run" HR range for myself and others is 65-80% of max. I also feel that 10% mileage increase per week is too high to sustain for any length of time for most runners: I argue for runners to start at 5-8% increase on average and monitor how their body reacts. I have SOME speedwork in virtually every runner's plan, and pretty substantial speedwork for ambitious runners who've been running for a while. What you describe doesn't sound much like one of my plans, honestly.

I BQ'd off of 3x per week myself, so I agree one can do it. I know a runner who has run 2:4x on 3 runs per week, so I can't say one can't run "fast" (whatever that means) that way. All I CAN say is I don't know any runners running 3x per week who couldn't improve their running with a WELL PLANNED program with more days/distance. They may exist, but I think it would be an odd physiology: even the 2:4x guy agrees he could go faster with more running, he just doesn't want to drop his other sports. Makes sense to me. There are probably MANY (bad) programs with 4+ days per week that will produce worse results than a good 3x per week program. I don't advocate a 4, 5 or 6 day a week program in general, but I do think if one is determined to run to their potential, running more days would be part of it. Other priorities may trump that, though!

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Re: Is less more?

Postby Jwolf » Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:17 pm

MichaelMc wrote:[As I insisted? Are you saying you were following MY plan? If so it is a shame I didn't know!

I think Dstew meant you "insisted" that he tell you what his mileage levels were.
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Re: Is less more?

Postby mcshame » Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:11 am

Thank you guys, I appreciate the feedback and got what I was looking for.

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Re: Is less more?

Postby MichaelMc » Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:25 am

Jwolf wrote:
MichaelMc wrote:[As I insisted? Are you saying you were following MY plan? If so it is a shame I didn't know!

I think Dstew meant you "insisted" that he tell you what his mileage levels were.


Makes sense, I couldn't imagine him using one of my programs: we have different philosophies, I think.

Many people, many priorities, many plans!

Merry Christmas to all

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Re: Is less more?

Postby Double Bellybuster » Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:18 pm

RayMan wrote:I know there are maniacs who don't like Higdon's marathon pace Saturdays followed by LSD Sundays, but I feel the two runs gave me the confidence to run long on slightly tired legs.


I like Higdon's Marathon Pace runs Saturdays followed by LSD Sundays. Combined with non-running pursuits, I find five days a week of running to build a marathon base taxing enough and save tempo and interval runs for half marathon training. For me, the race pace runs on Saturdays are the right level of challenge for healthy five day running weeks for my mid-pack efforts.

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Re: Is less more?

Postby juniperjen » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:14 pm

Jwolf wrote:
myles wrote:has anyone read "Run Less, Run Faster"? I'm always sucked in by promises of running faster :)


That's the FIRST program that was referenced before. You can get the programs on-line too.

I don't think this method is going to get you faster than your plan-- stick with what works. :)


I would definitely read the book over going with the website. I've tried the plan and like it. But the book has much more the rationale and details to the approach that the website just doesn't list. There seems to be alot of misconceptions about the plan because people just print of a plan and don't read the rest. Such as the approach to cross-training, picking appropriate pacing, etc. It gets a bit repetitive, you won't need to go into too much depth.

I picked it up for free at the library.
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Re: Is less more?

Postby turd ferguson » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:17 pm

My apologies if this has already been posted, but depending on who you believe, More is More

http://runningmagazine.ca/2010/01/secti ... nd-harder/
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Re: Is less more?

Postby Jwolf » Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:23 pm

That article isn't really about marathon training, though.

It's more about needing to do more exercise than the standard minimum recommendations given to get sedentary people off the couch.
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Re: Is less more?

Postby Dstew » Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:31 pm

A couple of interesting articles I came across when I was cleaning up some stuff:

http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?Ar ... &PageNum=4

http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?Ar ... &PageNum=2

http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?Ar ... &PageNum=2

I thought the last article was interesting in that it seemed to conclude that one size does not fit all when it comes to marathon training.

The one interesting comment in the Pfitzinger article was that everyone seems to agree on the first part but may not read the second line:


"Today, we understand that while large increases in training can be made over long periods of time, the body can only handle relatively small increases in a given time period. In addition, there are large differences between runners in how much mileage their bodies can deal with, based on their biomechanics, running experience, age and injury history."

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Re: Is less more?

Postby Double Bellybuster » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:37 pm

mcshame wrote:My 10k race time suggests a 3:24:55 marathon, I've only tapped into a 3:52.


Time to do something about this!

mcshame wrote:Is less more and more less? Or is quantity with speed work the ticket.


Was the answer for you quantity with speed?
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Re: Is less more?

Postby mcshame » Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:35 pm

Double Bellybuster wrote:
mcshame wrote:My 10k race time suggests a 3:24:55 marathon, I've only tapped into a 3:52.


Time to do something about this!

mcshame wrote:Is less more and more less? Or is quantity with speed work the ticket.


Was the answer for you quantity with speed?


Wow, where did you dig that up? ;) Quantity...the speed just came. I did do some speed work but the speed mostly just happen.

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Re: Is less more?

Postby mcshame » Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:14 am

thanks for digging this up BB. Nice to see the current results from decisions 10 months ago.


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