HM Racing Strategy?

[Kristen]

If you're sure the pace you can hold is somewhere between 4:30 and 4:40 then go out at 4:30-4:35. If you are only 10 seconds off at the most then you won't fade TOO badly. If it seems to be getting harder faster than you are finishing you can still adjust a bit, but the last few kilometers will be hard.

Very wise advice, Michael. This is exactly what I needed to hear. I think I'll start no faster than 4:40, then assess how stuff feels at 11K then with 5K remaining. When I ran my 1:38 in training, I ran an intentional negative split (and figured I could have run that final 10K at least one minute faster than I did that day). I generally tend to do better when I can ease into my runs, so I think the negative split strategy might work well.

[Pat Menzies]

In practice people running around 1:30 or faster do tend to run a half at essentially their 10 mile pace.
Women also tend to be much better at that (increased distance at shorter distance pace).
The fact that Kristen ran 1:38 (albeit on a treadmill) has me thinking that a competitive situation should result in 5-10 minutes faster.
My best half in training is 1:35 and it was pretty tough.

[b_squared]

has me thinking that a competitive situation should result in 5-10 minutes faster.

fwiw I am going to agree with this Kristen. Why? My training paces and yours are almost identical: tempo, 4:20; 1km intervals 4:05-4:10 but your volume is about 2.5 times mine. my best half time set last Nov, 1:32. if you get good conditions and a competitive environment sub- 1:35 should not be a problem by this simple math.

[richie-rich]

If you're sure the pace you can hold is somewhere between 4:30 and 4:40 then go out at 4:30-4:35. If you are only 10 seconds off at the most then you won't fade TOO badly. If it seems to be getting harder faster than you are finishing you can still adjust a bit, but the last few kilometers will be hard.

Very wise advice, Michael. This is exactly what I needed to hear. I think I'll start no faster than 4:40, then assess how stuff feels at 11K then with 5K remaining. When I ran my 1:38 in training, I ran an intentional negative split (and figured I could have run that final 10K at least one minute faster than I did that day). I generally tend to do better when I can ease into my runs, so I think the negative split strategy might work well.

sounds like a good plan to me. it took me a few longer runs at potential race pace to get a comfort level for my half pacing. If you go out at 4:40 and feel like you can go faster with 5km left then you know you can pick up the pace for your next half race. use it as your baseline, so to speak

[alexk]

Just catching up on this thread - great discussion. Not sure if I'll do the half this weekend, Kristen. I'm leaning towards not - racing seems to shift my training mindset all week. I think I'll stick to my planned lsd and throw in a 10k or two race before Ottawa. This may serve me better in the end...but who knows!!! I'm right where you are with the half distance. My PB (a couple of years ago) is 1:37. I'd love to try and run 1:35 and then try for under that (1:32/33). I think I might focus on the half distance this summer. There's one I could do in late June and then a few between July and October. I think it may take me a few attempts to get to where I want.

Not sure about the PEI marathon this year (have to get through NCM first) - I'll do the half, for sure. I'm a bit biased, but I HIGHLY recommend it (for Kristen and anyone else). It's an awesome point to point course that takes you through the National Park (along the north shore), along some lovely rural roads and the Conderation Trail (8 miles) and then winds up in downtown Charlottetown. It's small, but not too small; relatively flat and fast. And the people (runners and spectators) are amazing!

Sorry to steal your thread with a push for PEI, Kristen! The half is also a great course that produces some fast times.

[Kristen]

No stealing here at all, Alex. Totally all on topic, and much appreciated. Imo, I think you're doing the right thing by doing the LSD this weekend; you just raced and your body will appreciate a little chance to recover. Plus, you'll be all revved up to race come NCM and absolutely ready to throw all your energy at this one -- and nail that PB! Sub 3:25, easy.

Thank you so much for sharing about your HM history and plans, as well a little about the PEI marathon! It looks so lovely, and the way you describe it makes it sound all the more enticing. I do believe I am tentatively penciling this one in...

When you ran your half PB, what was your strategy? And what would you change, if anything, next time?

[alexk]

Tks, Kristen and tks for your advice re this weekend's race. I think you're right. The half would take more out of me than the 10k and things are going well - don't want to mess things up. For me, staying consistent is key. As for my strategy on my half PB, if I remember correctly, I didn't really have one (lol). Before I found RM, I never really trained using specific paces. I would just log the miles and hope for the best come race day (not too smart, I know). I remember feeling good during that race and pushing the pace a bit in the end. I've runner other halves (in the 1:39/1:40 range where I started out way too fast and crashed). Because I live in a small place and do lots of local races, I tend to pace off people I know are close to my speed. I think knowing your T pace and how long you can hold it (and all the training done at that pace) will help you a lot. Remember you can always give more in a race...the atmosphere alone always gives me that extra push (even when I resist it). I get the feeling you have the innate ability to really push! I think you'll nail this distance!!!

[nikexc84]

My next race is a half marathon. I really want to hammer this thing and see where things are at. The first time I ran a HM, it was my first road race as an adult. I had no clue what I was doing, and I just wanted to finish. The second time I ran a HM, it was in the dead of winter... This time, the early May conditions should be optimal and I should be in a position to throw everything I've got at this race. So, how is racing a half marathon different from a racing a marathon? Any half specialists care to share secrets? Thanks!

Hi Kristen- The most important thing in racing a 1/2 is to not start too fast. You have had a chance to run a couple so that has given you some experience with the distance. Even consistent pacing will help you get to your time. If you hammer the first 10k you might find it will really come back at you around 18k. Run your own race focus on your goal
and stick with the pace. Running the marathon is a whole different thing the 18-22 mile mark can play tricks on your body you can either do really well or crash and burn. my best experience with the distance has been to run a pace
that i feel could run at and it worked quite well. Good luck with your run.

Cheers.

K
1:06 1/2 PB
30 min 10k PB

[Kristen]

Because I live in a small place and do lots of local races, I tend to pace off people I know are close to my speed. I think knowing your T pace and how long you can hold it (and all the training done at that pace) will help you a lot. Remember you can always give more in a race...the atmosphere alone always gives me that extra push (even when I resist it).

I think you hit on something key here. I really need to find some people to train with. And I think I might also do well if I can pace off people, too... I hope this will start to work itself out in the coming year. As I'm in my second year of running, perhaps these connections will happen in good time? Maybe I made the mistake of diving into marathoning without working my way up; had I done the latter, maybe I could have taken some clinics and made some connections that way.

On a related note, it's so great to have you here on this board. I'm learning a lot from you, and your consistent (and fast!) results are a true source of inspiration & motivation for me. I hope I can persuade you to add your PBs to our RM PB list thread. Please?

[Kristen]

Hi Kristen- The most important thing in racing a 1/2 is to not start too fast. You have had a chance to run a couple so that has given you some experience with the distance. Even consistent pacing will help you get to your time. If you hammer the first 10k you might find it will really come back at you around 18k. Run your own race focus on your goal
and stick with the pace. Running the marathon is a whole different thing the 18-22 mile mark can play tricks on your body you can either do really well or crash and burn. my best experience with the distance has been to run a pace
that i feel could run at and it worked quite well. Good luck with your run.

Hi and welcome to the board. Thank you for your suggestions here. It's interesting that you should note this because I've always used this approach for the the time trials I've run, and this seems to work very nicely. This could well be the strategy I take this time, then just build from there on the next race.

Please forgive me for asking, but are those your PBs (the 1:06 HM and 30-min 10K)?! If so, they are just incredible. (Who are you?)

[KBO]

Because I live in a small place and do lots of local races, I tend to pace off people I know are close to my speed. I think knowing your T pace and how long you can hold it (and all the training done at that pace) will help you a lot. Remember you can always give more in a race...the atmosphere alone always gives me that extra push (even when I resist it).

I think you hit on something key here. I really need to find some people to train with. And I think I might also do well if I can pace off people, too... I hope this will start to work itself out in the coming year. As I'm in my second year of running, perhaps these connections will happen in good time? Maybe I made the mistake of diving into marathoning without working my way up; had I done the latter, maybe I could have taken some clinics and made some connections that way.

On a related note, it's so great to have you here on this board. I'm learning a lot from you, and your consistent (and fast!) results are a true source of inspiration & motivation for me. I hope I can persuade you to add your PBs to our RM PB list thread. Please?

Kristen, you may want to consider training with Road Kill on Tuesday evenings at Grant Park Track. It would a good, challenging environment for you. They welcome everyone that comes out.

[Kristen]

Kristen, you may want to consider training with Road Kill on Tuesday evenings at Grant Park Track. It would a good, challenging environment for you. They welcome everyone that comes out.

Thanks, Karen. Are you part of that group? Do you train with them? If not, is there anyone on RM who does? Is there a website (I looked for one, but couldn't find it) or someone I can talk to about this?

[KBO]

Kristen, you may want to consider training with Road Kill on Tuesday evenings at Grant Park Track. It would a good, challenging environment for you. They welcome everyone that comes out.

Thanks, Karen. Are you part of that group? Do you train with them? If not, is there anyone on RM who does? Is there a website (I looked for one, but couldn't find it) or someone I can talk to about this?

I don't train with them, but yes, there are Winnipeg Maniacs that do...Endurox and Roadrunner. They don't have a website but I could email you contact information for the group if you'd like. Let me know.

[nikexc84]

Hi and welcome to the board. Thank you for your suggestions here. It's interesting that you should note this because I've always used this approach for the the time trials I've run, and this seems to work very nicely. This could well be the strategy I take this time, then just build from there on the next race.

Please forgive me for asking, but are those your PBs (the 1:06 HM and 30-min 10K)?! If so, they are just incredible. (Who are you?)

It's seems like a good site. Time trials are good for gauging your fitness. I used to like running a 3k or 5k race on the track before big races. They were short enough that you could recover in time for your race .When I ran 1:06 I did a 3k track race in 8:32 on a wednesday night meet. I guess you could call those races time trials. I think if you want to improve on your time -tempos, intervals,the usual standard training will help you to reach your goals. I generally specialized in 10k track/road and cross country. If you're training for the 10k it's pretty easy to jump up to longer distances( or shorter) as long as you do the longer runs. The marathon distance you really need to get the long runs in to do well. Standard mileage for me at the time was 125 to 160 km/week with two sessions of intervals ie 5 x 1 mile or something like 8 X400 -6 x 200. The main thing is be consistent. If you're in with a good training group chances are there some pretty good coaches to help you out. Seems like a lot of good people on this site lots of interesting input.


Cheers and good luck with your race

(PS those my times -I've raced at every distance from the 1500m up to the marathon during my competitive career. I like to sign on once and a while to lend some advice.

Cheers

[Kristen]

It's seems like a good site.

It's a wonderful running community, and I hope you'll check in with us from time to time. Do you still run?

Time trials are good for gauging your fitness. I used to like running a 3k or 5k race on the track before big races. They were short enough that you could recover in time for your race .When I ran 1:06 I did a 3k track race in 8:32 on a wednesday night meet. I guess you could call those races time trials. I think if you want to improve on your time -tempos, intervals,the usual standard training will help you to reach your goals. I generally specialized in 10k track/road and cross country. If you're training for the 10k it's pretty easy to jump up to longer distances( or shorter) as long as you do the longer runs. The marathon distance you really need to get the long runs in to do well. Standard mileage for me at the time was 125 to 160 km/week with two sessions of intervals ie 5 x 1 mile or something like 8 X400 -6 x 200. The main thing is be consistent.

How was your HM training different for marathon training? How frequently did you run marathons, as opposed to half marathons and 10K track, road, and XC? Also, if I may ask, what was your marathon PB? And how did you gauge how to pace the marathon as opposed to the half? Did you double your time and add 10 minutes, then figure out the pace?

[nikexc84]

How was your HM training different for marathon training? How frequently did you run marathons, as opposed to half marathons and 10K track, road, and XC? Also, if I may ask, what was your marathon PB? And how did you gauge how to pace the marathon as opposed to the half? Did you double your time and add 10 minutes, then figure out the pace?

I only ever ran 2 marathons. I liked running shorter races ie not the marathon. When I did train for the marathon I ran about 20 miles at about
6 min mile pace. I would do workouts like 6 x 1 mile in 4:55/mile. I ran a 14:27 5k and a 1:38 30km in late summer than ran a 2:25 marathon I was on 2:15 pace at 20 miles but had some problems with leg cramps. A lot of really good track guys will run great 10k but not always a marathon. Racing a hard marathon is really tough on the body so you don't want to do it very often. I guess the formula you've mentioned is pretty standard but the marathon is a race of it's own when you get to the 20 to 22 mile mark a lot can happen. Personally I think it's harder to run a good 1500( 3:55pb) than the marathon. And a hard 10k on the track is a pretty tough race. XC is tough the courses always vary so it's based on finish and not some much time . I have a pb of 36:30 for 12km for xc tough race- tough field.. I think maybe running has become a little too complicated these days. If you train right, run some good races and be realistic about your goals you can do well.

Cheers

[Kristen]

I only ever ran 2 marathons. I liked running shorter races ie not the marathon. When I did train for the marathon I ran about 20 miles at about 6 min mile pace. I would do workouts like 6 x 1 mile in 4:55/mile. I ran a 14:27 5k and a 1:38 30km in late summer than ran a 2:25 marathon I was on 2:15 pace at 20 miles but had some problems with leg cramps. A lot of really good track guys will run great 10k but not always a marathon. Racing a hard marathon is really tough on the body so you don't want to do it very often. I guess the formula you've mentioned is pretty standard but the marathon is a race of it's own when you get to the 20 to 22 mile mark a lot can happen. Personally I think it's harder to run a good 1500( 3:55pb) than the marathon. And a hard 10k on the track is a pretty tough race. XC is tough the courses always vary so it's based on finish and not some much time . I have a pb of 36:30 for 12km for xc tough race- tough field.. I think maybe running has become a little too complicated these days. If you train right, run some good races and be realistic about your goals you can do well.

Wow, much food for thought here... thank you for sharing all of this.

I've always imagined a 10K on the track to be an incredibly tough race. However, imagining anything shorter than that on a track also makes me think of one word: pain. I believe at heart I am a trail runner (not XC). For some reason I tend to do better on the trails when there is something new around the next corner to be explored. I did run XC in high school and I remember how intense it was. Fast forward 20 years later to my first 8K trail race last fall -- what an enjoyable experience! But the other part of me is definitely a long distance runner. I'm a very unlikely candidate in terms of build; however, it's where my heart is at and it's what I enjoy. And I do believe I have the mindset for logging the mileage and for confronting that magical wall. Last time, I actually didn't feel a "death march" so much as a lack of fuel, a little residual cold/flu, and some tight legs in the final 4K. I did slow, but nowhere near the walking halt I came to in my previous marathon. I was still running... and I feel I might be able to "race" my next marathon. This is truly a unique (and wonderful) feeling.

Last, I couldn't agree more about the realistic goals. I'm learning that it's much more fun to have lots of small, achievable goals (and lots of little races and opportunities to meet them) as opposed to throwing my heart and soul at a single important marathon. I think my heart bled a little after my fall marathon, but I'm working on not placing so much importance on results while still giving it my all each and every day all the same.

[nikexc84]

Good luck with your running Kristen. It's a nice forum. I'll post here once and a while. Interesting little thread on the 5km. Might add a little to that.

Cheers

[QuickChick]

When is your half Kristen? I'm racing this weekend. I think speed wise I could be 1:38-1:40, but I'm a bit concerned that my endurance isn't quite up to that. I did one 22km run, but my other long runs have been 15-19km for the last few weeks. My runs home from work (just under 11km) have been at 4:41-4:45 when I've done tempo runs, so I'm hoping that is my half pace. I think I'm going to go out at 4:45ish or a touch faster and see how long I can hold it. I know the last 5km will be tough no matter what!!

[Kristen]

When is your half Kristen? I'm racing this weekend. I think speed wise I could be 1:38-1:40, but I'm a bit concerned that my endurance isn't quite up to that. I did one 22km run, but my other long runs have been 15-19km for the last few weeks. My runs home from work (just under 11km) have been at 4:41-4:45 when I've done tempo runs, so I'm hoping that is my half pace. I think I'm going to go out at 4:45ish or a touch faster and see how long I can hold it. I know the last 5km will be tough no matter what!!

I've registered for a half on May 2nd and there's another on May 30th that I might do. However, I'm officially on the injured list right now. I feel as though I have a minor sprain in my right ankle and my right soleus muscle is unhappy too. Also, I have a grumpy left ITB and some ongoing hip flexor issues. My ITB was fine yesterday, but it is complaining this morning...so I'm a bit of a mess. Lol! Anyhow, long story short, I'm not sure I'll be running either half at this point. This week, I'm taking a break from running and I'll be cross-training and working out some of these leg issues. In a perfect world I would heal up yesterday and be running Montreal, the WPS Half, and the AirForce Half. (maybe next year?)

I agree that you could be in the 1:38-1:40 range. I saw that you ran long yesterday and noted that you didn't feel like you were going as fast as you were, so maybe that's a good sign? To be truthful, I'm not really sure about training for a half. I was banking on my past few months of marathon training to take care of the long runs; however, I'm sure I'll see endurance disappear quickly since I won't be running. And I only had one semi-quality speedwork session last week and few during the weeks I was sick so I suppose any speed I had will fade too. But in that one workout I did this past Saturday I did manage to do 3x2K in 8:52, 9:00, and 8:58 with 400m jog recoveries. It wasn't a full-on threshold workout as I was coming off the marathon, but that pace felt easier at the track than it did last time (maybe because I wasn't dodging a massive pile of snow running the length of the bleachers). So I guess prior to getting sick and injured, and based on some threshold work in the 4:26-4:30 range (a couple workouts at 4:23 but on a TM), I was hoping to dip under 1:37 this time. At this point, I'll be happy to run the whole thing in the company of other runners.

With regard to pacing strategy, nikexc84 had some good advice about going with a pace that felt right. I do believe each of us knows deep down what pace we can hold and that if we listen carefully we'll know what to do. It sounds as though you'll be comfortable with a 4:40 to 4:45 to start, and you have your recent 5K experience to call upon in the final 5K. I wish I had some shorter races under my belt to know what that part feels like in a racing context. Also, I wish I had your ability to excel in a race environment; I believe you can really count on this to work to your advantage. I wish you luck with your race! I'll be cheering from way over here in Winnipeg, and hopefully I'll be one of the first to congratulate you when you dip below 1:40.

[Double Bellybuster]

Are you healthy now Kristen and taking another run at this?