Marathon: a race too far? RT article

[Jwolf]

but that's for "serious competitors", not recreational runners. It'd be nice if we could all run to that level, but obviously it's not realistic for most people.

Well, the question about mileage first was posed for "competitive recreational runners." I think the chart shows what the optimal competitive mileage would be-- just showing that many of us have way more potential than we come close to. Personally I know I had my best training cycle and PB'ed in the 10K, peaking at about 50 miles per week (with long runs and speed workouts that fit into the recommendations for the 10K optimal training). So not too far off what they recommend.

This line was interesting though:

Even knowing this, many of us can't motivate ourselves to run 50-mile weeks for a 5K, requiring the fear factor of the marathon to get us to that level.

I know lots of people that are not motivated enough to train for shorter distances, and therefore won't do the mileage. I had people asking me why I was doing "marathon mileage" when training for a 10K.

[ROW]

Wow. That's an eye opener.

Apparently I'm not even putting in enough miles for a 5K much less the HM I'm shooting for. I'm around 30 miles/week.

Because your not.

Roughly 48km a week isn't enough to race at a full potential. Someone who wants to be strong in a 5km will need to put in 60-80 miles a week for a couple months to build a base and then average around 50-70 miles a week while seriously training if they want a very good time. Though natural talent makes a difference too.

[fe.RMT]

I know lots of people that are not motivated enough to train for shorter distances, and therefore won't do the mileage. I had people asking me why I was doing "marathon mileage" when training for a 10K.

Another interesting side to this is that there aren't many readily available plans out there for higher mileage short distance racing. Short distance race plans seem to fall into the 'to complete' camp more often than not (eg. couch to 5K type stuff) So, in order to go higher mileage you also have to be willing to put in the time to read your Daniels or what have you and build a plan yourself. In the past I loved to do this, but these days (for whatever reason) the thought of that is more a deterrent than the training itself

[QuickChick]

The point that most people would rather train for a marathon when they don't have the time/desire to do it optimally, rather than train for a shorter race which would allow them to train to get closer to their potential, really resonated. I have absolutely zero desire to run 70 miles or more a week, but I totally see how it would make you run a better marathon. I peaked at about 100km/week last year and it felt like all I was doing was running. For now, I would much rather see how much better I can get at the short stuff. And honestly, if I do run another marathon it'll probably be just to BQ, and I know from my recent improvements in speed that if I really focused on the marathon I could probably be quite a bit faster than 3:40. So you know what... I probably wouldn't be running 70 or more miles a week. 3:40 seems scary enough!

[Joe Dwarf]

Apparently I'm not even putting in enough miles for a 5K much less the HM I'm shooting for. I'm around 30 miles/week.

Because your not.

Roughly 48km a week isn't enough to race at a full potential.

Oh, absolutely. But I'm a middle-aged guy with family, friends and a bunch of other commitments. Super-serious I'm not. What I want is enough mileage to run the HM hard for me and not get hurt. I'm trusting Coach Bruce at RVM is doing that for me with his plan, because that's what is driving the mileage.

[Jwolf]

I know lots of people that are not motivated enough to train for shorter distances, and therefore won't do the mileage. I had people asking me why I was doing "marathon mileage" when training for a 10K.

Another interesting side to this is that there aren't many readily available plans out there for higher mileage short distance racing. Short distance race plans seem to fall into the 'to complete' camp more often than not (eg. couch to 5K type stuff) So, in order to go higher mileage you also have to be willing to put in the time to read your Daniels or what have you and build a plan yourself. In the past I loved to do this, but these days (for whatever reason) the thought of that is more a deterrent than the training itself

It doesn't have to be that complicated, though. You don't need a set plan-- just a routine.

[richie-rich]

Wow. That's an eye opener.

Apparently I'm not even putting in enough miles for a 5K much less the HM I'm shooting for. I'm around 30 miles/week.

Because your not.

Roughly 48km a week isn't enough to race at a full potential. Someone who wants to be strong in a 5km will need to put in 60-80 miles a week for a couple months to build a base and then average around 50-70 miles a week while seriously training if they want a very good time. Though natural talent makes a difference too.

is that why you're injured all the time

[Pat Menzies]

He's never done that sort of training. His assessment isn't wrong though.
Mileage is very rarely the cause of injuries. It is how you arrange those miles and how you are doing them that causes potential problems.
The biggest cause of injuries is the schedule or program. Doing things because the schedule tells you to.

[mcshame]

Very good article. But I'm still in love with the marathon. It does motivate me to run lot's to train for it and I enjoy the training. I also do find during or after this training, I have had nice PBs in the shorter distances.

But, I still think I have a couple of step improvements in my marathon time even at less than ideal distances. Until I plateau, the marathon is still #1 for me.

[kennie]

I agree with most of the article, except for Noakes' suggestion that we "limit serious running to every second year and then only a few months of that year".

I'm much smarter about training now, but everyone is different; 50 miles/week training is not enought for some; 100 miles/week too much for others.

The key point he touches on is variety. Warmups, cross-training, speed work.

For me, my feet have learned a lot running trails. And lately, I've come to appreciate running on the soft shoulder of the highway.
After 6 miles of soft shoulders and hills, hitting a smooth even path, my body just naturally shouts 'time to crank it up!'

[Dstew]

Quite a timely article for me as I have not completely abandoned the concept of racing but after just finishing my first race of the year, next week will be my second consecutive Did Not Start.

Had I known then what I knew now, there is no question that after my third marathon I would have ceased running that distance and instead concentrated on the shorter distances, especially the 10 K race that I sucked at doing well. For me, at 5'11" and around 185 pounds or more, training for and running marathons to qualify for and then in Boston was causing too much damage but I went with my dad's old saying, it is a long way from the heart. So once I ran Boston the first time, I should have taken the rest of the year off and then got ready for a one or two quality 10 K races the year after that. I may have even gotten lucky after the 4th marathon but I know for sure after the 5th one, I have never been the same.

This year I got the heart rate monitor and did small distance and intervals on tracks and run and walk and every time I seem to be doing well, the knee or the hip or the ...

And I do appreciate what the author was saying about peaking only a couple of times a year. The other problem for me is going into a five race series and so train hard, peak for a race and then with almost no time to recover get ready for the next race and at some point during that season, my body would break down.

Very interesting article.

[LadyV]

Maybe I am not in the right thread (or even the right section) to write this...but is there a problem with wanting to run a marathon without trying or wanting to PB?
Can't we just enjoy training for and running a marathon without having to consider "i would be so much faster if ..."
Sometimes it just feels like there is too much of an obsession about PB's...
Could'nt we just be the best we can be on a given day, without worrying about being the best we have ever been?
Just askin' (feeling philosophical today )...

[Jo-Jo]

Maybe I am not in the right thread (or even the right section) to write this...but is there a problem with wanting to run a marathon without trying or wanting to PB?
Can't we just enjoy training for and running a marathon without having to consider "i would be so much faster if ..."
Sometimes it just feels like there is too much of an obsession about PB's...
Could'nt we just be the best we can be on a given day, without worrying about being the best we have ever been?
Just askin' (feeling philosophical today )...

An interesting pondering Lady V. I'm going to go out on a big limb here and say that for many people the marathon quest includes wanting to BQ. No...not everyone but many people. And for some people that BQ quest is somewhat elusive for them at the present time. I think why this is top of mind for me these days is that I have 3 running friends who trained with me during the winter when I was training for Boston. All three wanted to BQ...and two out of three did this spring in Mississauga. The third did not and even though she PB'd her Marathon she is taking no joy in her Marathon PB because she sees it as "not good enough" and is now training for a fall Marathon even though she's slightly injured.

I'm reading a interesting book..for runners over 50. This is not a book for newbie runners but for runners my age who have been running for a while. One of the topics that is touched on is the need for a mental break some times from PB goals. That's where I'm at this year...and I'm fine with that.

A few weeks ago I went out for a "long run" and when I came home my dh asked me how my run went. I said...almost apologetically..."well...it wasn't really long...it was "only" 12km" I then gave my head a shake and thought to myself..."how many almost 58 year old women do you know who go and run 12km...and then feel badly because it wasn't really a long run" That's when I decided to chill out this season, relax, have fun and see where my running takes me. Yep...as my former coach reminded me once......I'm pretty sure it's not going to take me to the next Olmpics

And I certainly don't want to suggest that the quest for PB's is not important or noble...I'm just saying that I found Lady V's pondering interesting because of where I'm at these days.

[Doonst]

Maybe I am not in the right thread (or even the right section) to write this...but is there a problem with wanting to run a marathon without trying or wanting to PB?
Can't we just enjoy training for and running a marathon without having to consider "i would be so much faster if ..."
Sometimes it just feels like there is too much of an obsession about PB's...
Could'nt we just be the best we can be on a given day, without worrying about being the best we have ever been?
Just askin' (feeling philosophical today )...

An interesting pondering Lady V. I'm going to go out on a big limb here and say that for many people the marathon quest includes wanting to BQ. No...not everyone but many people. And for some people that BQ quest is somewhat elusive for them at the present time. I think why this is top of mind for me these days is that I have 3 running friends who trained with me during the winter when I was training for Boston. All three wanted to BQ...and two out of three did this spring in Mississauga. The third did not and even though she PB'd her Marathon she is taking no joy in her Marathon PB because she sees it as "not good enough" and is now training for a fall Marathon even though she's slightly injured.

But its such a nice jacket, jacket owner!!

[Jo-Jo]

Maybe I am not in the right thread (or even the right section) to write this...but is there a problem with wanting to run a marathon without trying or wanting to PB?
Can't we just enjoy training for and running a marathon without having to consider "i would be so much faster if ..."
Sometimes it just feels like there is too much of an obsession about PB's...
Could'nt we just be the best we can be on a given day, without worrying about being the best we have ever been?
Just askin' (feeling philosophical today )...

An interesting pondering Lady V. I'm going to go out on a big limb here and say that for many people the marathon quest includes wanting to BQ. No...not everyone but many people. And for some people that BQ quest is somewhat elusive for them at the present time. I think why this is top of mind for me these days is that I have 3 running friends who trained with me during the winter when I was training for Boston. All three wanted to BQ...and two out of three did this spring in Mississauga. The third did not and even though she PB'd her Marathon she is taking no joy in her Marathon PB because she sees it as "not good enough" and is now training for a fall Marathon even though she's slightly injured.

But its such a nice jacket, jacket owner!!

Oh...it is indeed a lovely jacket. And yes I confess...I'm making a plan to get another one

Yes...I'm shallow...I like looking like a Rock Star

[Doonst]

Nice band.

[Jo-Jo]

Nice band.

If you're referring to the above picture...every time I see it I think..."sheesh...am I really that short"

I should be getting used to this considering Ron is tall...but I never do. In my mind's eye I'm tall

[Dstew]

Maybe I am not in the right thread (or even the right section) to write this...but is there a problem with wanting to run a marathon without trying or wanting to PB?
Can't we just enjoy training for and running a marathon without having to consider "i would be so much faster if ..."
Sometimes it just feels like there is too much of an obsession about PB's...
Could'nt we just be the best we can be on a given day, without worrying about being the best we have ever been?
Just askin' (feeling philosophical today )...

I have been considering that very question because when I have been pushing to personal best or recapture lost glory, I seem to push too hard and end up with a sore [fill in the blank]. Or it might even just be fatigue that comes with the territory but I ask myself why? That is if one is not going to RACE, then what is the point of entering a race? One can with GPS, etc run a "marathon" on any given day so why go to the bother of paying fees, etc if one is not going to race. I do appreciate that may not completely apply to a marathon as their are safety issues and the aid stations, etc but why enter a race of a shorter distance just to run it when one can run that distance just as easily?? I do appreciate that is personal preference as I do see the apply of the anticipation of the race and the bib as if one is a world class athlete and the shared experience and the ... but another and stronger part asks if you cannot compete against the field, your age group or even yourself, why bother?

[ultraslacker]

Maybe I am not in the right thread (or even the right section) to write this...but is there a problem with wanting to run a marathon without trying or wanting to PB?
Can't we just enjoy training for and running a marathon without having to consider "i would be so much faster if ..."
Sometimes it just feels like there is too much of an obsession about PB's...
Could'nt we just be the best we can be on a given day, without worrying about being the best we have ever been?
Just askin' (feeling philosophical today :roll: )...

Very valid question, and I think there are people who *don't* care about pb's. But I definitely think that a lot of people are motivated by challenging themselves, and that often means challenging themselves to improve their times.

Maybe one of the reasons I like trail running is because pb's are meaningless, so you don't get caught up in the numbers as much. :)

[QuickChick]

Many people don't care, and that's totally cool, but most who are looking/posting in the speed section do, I think! I think if I were ever to do a trail race, the fun would be racing against other people- chasing them down and not getting passed. It would be more about placement (for me anyway)... but it would still be a race that would be raced hard, even if it wasn't for time.

[Jo-Jo]

Maybe one of the reasons I like trail running is because pb's are meaningless, so you don't get caught up in the numbers as much.

I'm curious...how are PB's meaningless in trail running?

[QuickChick]

I will let Holly answer for herself, but I would think it would be because most trail races aren't exact distances- for example the 5 Peaks races have distances like 12.6km. Or because they're weird distances, like 28km, or because the courses are so distinct that the wouldn't compare to another course with the same distance. You could probably think about pb's for each race, though, when you're comparing each race to itself.

[bruyere]

I'm curious...how are PB's meaningless in trail running?

IMO, they're not entirely meaningless, but they ARE tougher to really claim/guage, since all trails are so different. The range of technical difficulty and elevation, among other things, is so great that you can't really say a 25km equals a 25km equals a 25km. I've done a 25km race that took me 3:06 while my marathon time on roads is 3:27. And I've done 50k that took me 5 hours and a 30 miler (48-ish km) that took me 8.5! You can't really compare one to the other.

That said, courses do track course records and you can look at your own race times on the same course, or similar courses. Though even then, of course, rain and snow change everything again... But you can still compare, and use past times to estimate what you might do on another course.

ETA: great minds, Lisa!!

[Robbie-T]

I think if I were ever to do a trail race, the fun would be racing against other people- chasing them down and not getting passed. It would be more about placement (for me anyway)... but it would still be a race that would be raced hard, even if it wasn't for time.

That is exactly why I love trail and XC racing, you get all the fun of racing without worrying about pace, it can all come down to guts and who wants it more, especially in XC. I hardly look at my watch for these races just focus and run.

I'd like to work it out so that at the end, it's a pure guts race. If it is, I'm the only one who can win it. - Pre

[Jo-Jo]

I'm curious...how are PB's meaningless in trail running?

IMO, they're not entirely meaningless, but they ARE tougher to really claim/guage, since all trails are so different. The range of technical difficulty and elevation, among other things, is so great that you can't really say a 25km equals a 25km equals a 25km. I've done a 25km race that took me 3:06 while my marathon time on roads is 3:27. And I've done 50k that took me 5 hours and a 30 miler (48-ish km) that took me 8.5! You can't really compare one to the other.

That said, courses do track course records and you can look at your own race times on the same course, or similar courses. Though even then, of course, rain and snow change everything again... But you can still compare, and use past times to estimate what you might do on another course.

ETA: great minds, Lisa!!

That's a good explanation.
Thanks.