Incorporating speed workouts - advice needed!

[hed]

Hello experts!

I need some advice on how to incorporate speed work into my last month and a half before a half. It's at the beginning of March and my goal would be to run 2:00, which is a few minutes faster than my PR - but I ran that in the middle of marathon training when we were doings the 30+ km long runs. My post-marathon half time was 2:08.

I run 4 times a week - long run (going to get up to 25k), a shortish tempo run (5-6k), hill repeats, and one more run that has been about 8k recently (and for the last couple weeks trudging through snow storms! My weekly mileage now is 40-50k/week. I don't think I'll pass 50k during this training session.

I've done seven weeks of hill training. Should I be replacing that with a speed session? Or replacing maybe my fourth 8kish run with speed? What would you recommend for incorporating speed workouts? I haven't done them that much...during marathon training we did 400-800 intervals (we just found a straight path in a park and went to town doing repeats). I was thinking fartleks; I've never done them, but finding a place to safely run intervals in the winter is a challenge. And I was thinking fartleks might not be as boring. I think I have about 6 weeks to do speed workouts before tapering.

It would be cool to hit my time goal, but I'm actually not too fussed about it...I'm more interested in learning how to build in speed workouts to my weekly schedule.

Thanks!

[mas_runner]

Hey, welcome to the forum. Before I answer, can I ask one or two more questions?

1) Do you have a recent race time (any distance, shorter the better)?

2) What pace do you do your tempo runs at?

[hed]

1. My most recent race was the half at the beginning of November - 2:08. Before that I ran the Scotia marathon in 4:35.

2. My tempo pace now (slower than in the height of marathon training) is about 5:45 (I know, not tempo for most of you!). I've found it a bit of a long road coming back from the marathon - I didn't get injured or anything, I just found my paces really dropped off and it took a while to start to get them down again.

[mas_runner]

1. My most recent race was the half at the beginning of November - 2:08. Before that I ran the Scotia marathon in 4:35.

2. My tempo pace now (slower than in the height of marathon training) is about 5:45 (I know, not tempo for most of you!). I've found it a bit of a long road coming back from the marathon - I didn't get injured or anything, I just found my paces really dropped off and it took a while to start to get them down again.

Your 2:08 HM gives you a suggested Daniels Vdot threshold (similar to tempo) pace of 5:50, so your 5:45 is a decent pace to be training at.

http://www.attackpoint.org/trainingpace ... %3A08%3A00

I improved from 2:06 to 1:56 with only long runs, easy runs and tempo workouts in my regime. If you are doing tempo runs then technically you are already doing speed workout, but I'm guessing you want to know of you should do some interval style runs.

I would say that it is not crucial to do interval type runs at this stage (others may have differing views), I would stick to what you are doing but try and push that tempo pace a little. To break 2 hours you will need roughly 5:42/km in the race. I would try tempos at 5:30 (start with shorter distance and add as you get more comfortable).

Hope this helps.

[ian]

I improved from 2:06 to 1:56 with only long runs, easy runs and tempo workouts in my regime. If you are doing tempo runs then technically you are already doing speed workout

This is the key: a weekly tempo run is sufficient speedwork for endurance training, especially in winter. There is far more to be gained from consistency and a few extra easy miles than from a day of even faster running. If you really enjoy the faster stuff, throw in half a dozen thirty second bursts in the second half of an otherwise easy run.

[Jwolf]

I improved from 2:06 to 1:56 with only long runs, easy runs and tempo workouts in my regime. If you are doing tempo runs then technically you are already doing speed workout

This is the key: a weekly tempo run is sufficient speedwork for endurance training, especially in winter. There is far more to be gained from consistency and a few extra easy miles than from a day of even faster running. If you really enjoy the faster stuff, throw in half a dozen thirty second bursts in the second half of an otherwise easy run.

Good advice-- I also improved from 2:09 to 1:56 in one year with a similar regimen.

You're already doing a weekly tempo run, so keep that up.

You don't have to do anything fancy, but if you want to do some fartlek-style running as you say instead of the hill runs a the end of your program, that could work. Although if you kept doing hills up until taper that would work, too.

[La]

1. My most recent race was the half at the beginning of November - 2:08. Before that I ran the Scotia marathon in 4:35.

2. My tempo pace now (slower than in the height of marathon training) is about 5:45 (I know, not tempo for most of you!). I've found it a bit of a long road coming back from the marathon - I didn't get injured or anything, I just found my paces really dropped off and it took a while to start to get them down again.

You and I are at about the same pace (or at least where I was when I was at my peak ).

If you want to run a 2:00 half, that means a race pace of 5:40, so you should be doing your tempo runs faster than 5:45.

I also found doing a mid-week "longer" run (10-12K) at close to race pace really helped.

[hed]

Thanks for the advice!

I think given it's winter and footing is a bit of an issue I'll continue doing hills (which I actually kind of love) and work on pushing the tempo run.

[PinkLady]

Are you sure you're not me? Cuz, you sound like me.....paces, goal race time, workouts..... And I'm a weirdo who loves hills too! (Though, not hill repeat workouts, I like putting a bunch here and there throughout my outside runs).

My training schedule for now, at least through the winter, is: LSD (up to 26km or thereabouts), one tempo run (8k total, with a 15-20 min warmup and about 25-30 min tempo, which I'm doing at a 5:14/km pace on the treadmill), 3 steady/recovery runs depending how I feel @ 8km each. I try do make sure at least 2, preferably 3 of my weekly runs are outside, but I like doing my tempos on the treadmill because of winter footing issues. My weekly volume is about 50-60km, which I think is good for me now....any more and I'd probably be skirting towards injury/burnout.

I've received advice that for longer distances (half and up) tempo runs are far more beneficial than speed, since we're going for endurance, not sprint events. I believe it....I've seen my 'easy' pace improve dramatically with consistent tempo runs, and all I did was get hurt/overfatigued on speedwork.

[hed]

lol - I love hill repeats! I love routine, so they fit my personality well

[MichaelMc]

If you want to run a 2:00 half, that means a race pace of 5:40, so you should be doing your tempo runs faster than 5:45.

I really dislike this "pull yourself to X time" theory of training. Your body knows how fit it is, and will respond to being challenged, but it really doesn't care what time you WANT to run.

It is similar to your furnace in some ways: it really doesn't matter whether you want the house 5 degrees hotter or 20 degrees, if the thermostat (training) is high enough to force a response then it is "ON". Pegging the thermostat to 40 degrees won't heat your house up faster. The differenece is, turning the thermostat up too high won't cause an injury, excessive fatigue or inefficient heating: bad training paces CAN.

Training should be appropriate to (challenge) where you currently ARE; if/when you get more fit THEN you adjust the paces (to maintain the challenge). When a person is (already) in 2:00 half fitness (ie. FINISHED training) they should be running faster threshold paces (like 5:29). A person in 2:08 fitness should be running threshold paces to improve that fitness, regarless HOW fast they want to be.

[hed]

I get what you're saying (above). I'm certainly not willing to push the tempo pace beyond what my body can handle, and then get injured. If I'm currently finding 5:45 a tempo pace, I'm not going to go out tomorrow and try to run a 5:30 tempo pace. I'm really not too obsessed about the time...if I feel good and the conditions are good etc., we'll see how close I get to it. I have another one at the end of May that might make more sense in terms of getting in another couple of months of training to hit that eventual goal.

But in order to hit that goal I've never been too sure how exactly to do that in terms of what kinds of runs I should be doing, so this discussion has been helpful in that regard.

[Lightning]

If you want to run a 2:00 half, that means a race pace of 5:40, so you should be doing your tempo runs faster than 5:45.

I really dislike this "pull yourself to X time" theory of training. Your body knows how fit it is, and will respond to being challenged, but it really doesn't care what time you WANT to run.

It is similar to your furnace in some ways: it really doesn't matter whether you want the house 5 degrees hotter or 20 degrees, if the thermostat (training) is high enough to force a response then it is "ON". Pegging the thermostat to 40 degrees won't heat your house up faster. The differenece is, turning the thermostat up too high won't cause an injury, excessive fatigue or inefficient heating: bad training paces CAN.

Training should be appropriate to (challenge) where you currently ARE; if/when you get more fit THEN you adjust the paces (to maintain the challenge). When a person is (already) in 2:00 half fitness (ie. FINISHED training) they should be running faster threshold paces (like 5:29). A person in 2:08 fitness should be running threshold paces to improve that fitness, regarless HOW fast they want to be.

I agree with MichaelMc. Actually, every training cycle I do, where my tempo run pace starts at in training is usually how fast I end up running my race. (that is not on purpose, it just ends up that way give or take a few seconds). The goal is to GET to a two hour time, not already BE there (ETA: just read that MichaelMc already said that. Ooops). So, I do think your training times are great! And 5:45 is plenty fast-you belong here too! Good luck!

[mas_runner]

The main thing is not to worry, you are on the right track. A short race between now and your HM wouldn't hurt and might give you a better handle on what your are capable of with your current (or will be current when you do it) fitness levels.

Here's wishing you the best of luck and if you love hill workouts then you truly belong here (i.e. with all the other "maniacs").

[La]

I think my comment was taken out of context. What I should have said was that if you can "only" do tempo workouts at a certain speed, then perhaps a goal of 2:00 isn't realistic. But if you're doing them at 5:45 and are capable of doing them at 5:35, then that's what you should be doing.

As much as I'd love to run my spring half in 1:58, I know that my current fitness level is not sufficient to get me there based on the paces I can currently hold for a 20-min tempo. I have to train from where I am as well as how I progress along the way. Hopefully 10 weeks from now I will be fitter (and therefore doing my runs at a faster pace) than I am now.

[fit-kitty]

sorry, budding in....

i keep reading about the vdot training, and i dont get it?

i put in todays run 5 miles in 50:26 min, (comfortable pace, i was able to sing along to my songs etc) so what does that make my vdot??

thanx

[ian]

i keep reading about the vdot training, and i dont get it?

i put in todays run 5 miles in 50:26 min, (comfortable pace, i was able to sing along to my songs etc) so what does that make my vdot??

You're going about it backwards. A vdot level is typically obtained from a recent race result and then this prescribes the paces at which various types of training runs will be most beneficial for improving your current fitness level. It sounds like the easy pace of your run today was just fine and there is a lot of margin for error on easy paces before they become too fast or too slow for your own good. Tempo paces (or threshold running), on the other hand, tend to have a much narrower window, and are much harder to do by feel, therefore the vdot system is one way to reduce the guesswork.

[fit-kitty]

OH ok...

thanx for answering!! : )