Continuously experimenting

[redhead]

This is long --- feel free to ignore --- just want to share "my experiment".

Since I started running (jogging/whatever you want to call it) nearly 3 years ago, I have taken walk breaks during all my runs. The number of walk breaks has decreased over time, but I never totally eliminated them. Generally the longest I would run without taking a walk break was 20 minutes, so a 60-minute easy run would usually have two walk breaks (one at 20 min, another at 40 min). When I was doing them, a typical tempo run for me would be 20 min easy, 20 min @ tempo and 20 min easy (with a walk break before and after the tempo portion, and perhaps another during the cool-down). 20 minutes just seemed the easiest duration to work with.

2008 sucked for me running-wise. I was injured and had to cross-train a lot, but so far this year has been going well.

I'm currently in base-building mode (again), gradually increasing my weekly mileage, doing primarily easy running. I've been running consistently (without injury/touch wood) since January and for the last 4 weeks I've been running six days/week, (four of those runs are short, 25-30 minutes). I wanted to "spread the load" so to speak and I find it easier (and typically safer for me) to do shorter runs nearly every day than longer runs 3-4 times/week.

I didn't have a recent race to base my training paces on this year, and I wasn't fit enough to even run a hard mile, so I've been monitoring my heart rate, using perceived exertion, and keeping a very detailed log to figure out what training paces would work for me. I finally think I have it all sorted out (or sorted enough, subject to change as my fitness improves).

Anyway, back to the walk breaks. In January I was taking a walk break about every km. By March it was one every 2 km. For the past two weeks I've been doing 4 (of my 6 runs/week) continuously, without taking walk breaks, trying to keep my heart rate within a very small range. 70-75% on my easy and long runs, 65-70% on my zone 2 (very easy) runs.

When my mid week runs get longer I'll switch to running 5 days/week, with 2 days off.

So far I've been able to eliminate the walk breaks for all runs up to 40 minutes in duration. After that my HR will drift upward too much, so I take a short walk break. I'm still taking walk breaks on my long runs and on the day I add strides (I'm doing walk-back strides on most Thursdays).

I'm not starting tempo runs until June. The runs will gradually get longer in duration and my plan is, in a couple of more weeks, I'll do all my runs at 70-75% HR, then after a couple of more weeks I'll switch a run or two to 75-80% HR. Right now it’s strictly base-building (and trying not to get re-injured).

I'm not entirely sure what the benefits to eliminating the walk breaks might be, but I'm hoping that during this early base-building phase it will help me to build endurance. I have to run a bit slower to manage my HR when I run continuously, but my ‘Average Pace’ ends up the same as the R/W, and my HR chart looks a whole lot smoother. Running slower isn’t as much fun (especially when you’re not fast to begin with), and my form isn’t great, but it’s been an interesting experiment none-the-less, and I seem to be making some progress.

I’ll just have to see how it goes. I may end up going back to taking walk breaks after all is said and done. I find it MUCH easier to drink while walking than running, and when my long runs get longer I’ll be taking gels with me. I cannot even imagine running a half-marathon continuously. I’m just not coordinated enough to run and juggle anything!

[Darth Tater]

Sounds like you are doing all the right things to stay injury free and build your base up properly. You have a well thought out plan, and seem to be executing it flawlessly. Way to go!

[scrumhalfgirl]

Very interesting to read about your experiment! I don't use walk breaks or train by HR, so I can't comment on that, but it sounds like this is working for you! This winter, I have also found that running on more days works much better for me in terms of staying injury free.

[abhainn]

If I'm reading you right, I think I've been experiencing the same as you. Granted this is on my TM, but I'm now able to do an entire run (so far the longest has been 5k) without a walk break and maintain a pretty even heart-rate throughout. Even though I only started "eliminating" walk breaks for the last month or so (which was a revelation to me that I actually could run for 45minutes continuously without a walk break and not dying), I have felt like a stronger runner doing this, and even noticed yesterday at one point that I was able to run a longer distance before my hr got too high for my lsd run liking. I would anticipate that the trend will continue and at some point I will be able to go pretty far, at my snails pace, without needing to take a walk break.

I don't know that I would ever completely get rid of walk breaks, they're better for me to take a drink, but especially on shorter runs when I just want to get the run over with, losing the walk break means that I'm done a good 5minutes earlier. I have also seen much better results doing this than when I tried specific HR training last year.

I have not however graphed my average hr results. That's a little too anal for me

[La]

The only question I have is whether you know for sure that the HR zones you are using are right for you, or are you basing it on a generic formula? The reason I ask is because if you are running at an easy pace, yet still need to take a walk break to keep you HR down, then maybe the zones you are using are out of whack for you.

[redhead]

The only question I have is whether you know for sure that the HR zones you are using are right for you, or are you basing it on a generic formula? The reason I ask is because if you are running at an easy pace, yet still need to take a walk break to keep you HR down, then maybe the zones you are using are out of whack for you.

Thanks Lesley. I may have not been clear, this is complicated to explain. My two-week experiment has been to run by HR to see what average pace I ended up with for that run. I've been adjusting my starting/goal pace for my next run, based on what I've learned for the previous ones. Right now I'm intentionally only using the low-end of zone 3, 70-75%, instead of the full range 70-80%.

I've only NOT been taking walk breaks for 2 weeks. Prior to that I would intentionally run a bit faster than my goal pace to allow for the walk breaks so that my 'average pace' ended up being my goal pace. I would use the Run/Walk Calculator http://www.users.kih.net/~mewilliams/calc/ to see how fast I'd have to run if I intended on taking a walk break every 12 min (for example).

My first continuous run was 20 min in duration. I did that a few times, and then started doing 25 min, then 30 min. My longest attempt of continuous running so far has been 40 min ... after 40 min my HR drifted over 75%. So what I learned was that I can run 40 min at xx pace without walk breaks. But I also learned that if I want to run 50-60 min I'll have to start a bit slower to allow for drift. I think if I was fitter and had more endurance the drift factor wouldn't occur as early. Plus, iI I was giving myself the full range of the zone, example 70-80% HR, I'm sure I could go for a longer period of time.

I'm pretty sure my HR zones are at least close to accurate. I haven't had a LT test but I had a monitored max HR test in 2006, which gave me at least a starting point, and I've compared my actual max hr results from races, etc. and it seems accurate enough for me to work with. I won't be getting any expensive testing done, and I like trying to learn from actually just running.

[redhead]

Thanks Darth and Jess.

Andrea, I think we may be doing pretty much the same thing, but perhaps your walk breaks are longer than mine, or you walk them a bit slower. I've never had enough walk breaks to add a whole five minute to my overall time. My walk breaks would be about 30-60 seconds, and I try not to allow my HR to go lower than 60%. I set my Garmin for an upper limit and a lower limit and use the alerts. My average comfortable walking pace is about 10:00/km. So I guess I'm a brisk walker and a slow runner.

[babysteps]

Thanks Darth and Jess.

Andrea, I think we may be doing pretty much the same thing, but perhaps your walk breaks are longer than mine, or you walk them a bit slower. I've never had enough walk breaks to add a whole five minute to my overall time. My walk breaks would be about 30-60 seconds, and I try not to allow my HR to go lower than 60%. I set my Garmin for an upper limit and a lower limit and use the alerts. My average comfortable walking pace is about 10:00/km. So I guess I'm a brisk walker and a slow runner.

That sounds just like me!

I've been working on getting rid of walk breaks too. I can do about an hour outside now but I always still use them for my LSDs. My plan for after this HM is to work on trying to get rid of them completely.

You have some really good information and sound like you have a firm grasp of your body's reaction to different paces. I'll be following this thread so keep updating!

[redhead]

Thanks Babysteps. Glad to know that my long-windedness makes some kind of sense, and wasn't all gibberish. I have a terrible time trying to be concise. (I guess I didn't need to actually type that).

I have not however graphed my average hr results. That's a little too anal for me

LOL! - ooooh, I love graphs. Nothing's too anal for me!

[redhead]

PS to Darth - I sent you a PM last night at 1:11 am, before you replied to this post - but I see you haven't opened it yet. Check your new messages buddy!

[abhainn]

Thanks Darth and Jess.

Andrea, I think we may be doing pretty much the same thing, but perhaps your walk breaks are longer than mine, or you walk them a bit slower. I've never had enough walk breaks to add a whole five minute to my overall time. My walk breaks would be about 30-60 seconds, and I try not to allow my HR to go lower than 60%. I set my Garmin for an upper limit and a lower limit and use the alerts. My average comfortable walking pace is about 10:00/km. So I guess I'm a brisk walker and a slow runner.

Yeah, when I walk I slow it right down My walk breaks on TM are more than a few minutes slower than run pace - run @ 11min/k, walk @ 14.1, for at least a minute (I want that full 60 seconds). Outside so far, just going by total time spent on the road and the total ks, my average pace, including walk breaks, is around 10.30k/min (update: yesterday's run averaged out to 10:49min/k - which includes a 5minutes break at half way point) but I haven't taken my garmin out with me yet to get exact numbers, mostly because I don't want to be thinking about pacing at this stage. I'm slow all the way around

[redhead]

No worries Andrea. We do whatever works for us.
As they say, “It is what it is”.

[Jwolf]

You're making good progress, Arlene. Keep up the good work-- I'm glad you've had a good start to 2009. I'll just say that I don't think you have any real NEED to give up walk breaks for the longer runs. You walking pace is quite brisk and won't slow your overall pace that much. For the longer distances, you'll probably find that they help endurance (and not the other way around). Beiing able to do 40 minutes straight is great for stamina training, but not as much for endurance (which is mostly about the total length of time you are out there on long runs-- not whether or not you walk as part of them).

[redhead]

Thanks so much Jennifer. I appreciate the explanation about the difference between building endurance vs building stamina. I've never really had a good handle on that. I've always just thought of tempo runs as stamina workouts.

And I will admit that I'm somewhat relieved to know there is not an absolute need to get rid of the walk breaks for my long runs. Babysteps mentioned earlier that she's just using them on her LSDs, and that sounded pretty good to me.

I'd be very happy to be able to plan on a walk break every 2-3 km on my long runs in training. That's what I did my first time around, and it seems to tie in quite nicely with the placement of water stations in most big races.

I know I've heard you say many times to people that if you just slow down a bit on your easy runs you don't need to take walk breaks. I've been resistant to do this in the past, and I think that may have been at least part of the reason for my injuries. This year, I'm listening more and resisting less.

Thanks everyone. I appreciate your feed-back.

[Nicholas]

First, it's great to see you back out there and running regularly!!! It's been a tough time for you and you've worked hard to pull yourself through it.

You have a great handle on what works for you and are learning more as you go. Kudos for taking the time and effort to be so diligent (OK, and a bit anal) about it. As for walk breaks, they are great for building endurance on your longer runs. I find, for me, that once the distance itself is not the challenge, then walk breaks are not necessary. I will still stop for a drink or a gel or to stretch out a sore muscle but not at religiously planned intervals. Everyone is different and you are finding what works for you, so experiment away and keep us posted!!

[Jwolf]

I appreciate the explanation about the difference between building endurance vs building stamina. I've never really had a good handle on that. I've always just thought of tempo runs as stamina workouts.

Just to be clear, without getting too technical-- tempo runs are often called "stamina" runs because they train you to run longer at a faster pace without fading. For what you are doing with the base-building, I think of your shorter easy runs as training "stamina"-wise because you are teaching yourself to run longer without stopping, and eventually these runs will be faster than your long run. But it's really the long runs that are allowing you to train to run longer, i.e. endurance.

[Darth Tater]

PS to Darth - I sent you a PM last night at 1:11 am, before you replied to this post - but I see you haven't opened it yet. Check your new messages buddy!

Sorry about that. When I'm at home on Firefox I don't get a pop-up telling me I have a message. At work on IE I do. I only noticed this evening when I got on the 'puter that there was a message there.

[babysteps]

I find, for me, that once the distance itself is not the challenge, then walk breaks are not necessary. I will still stop for a drink or a gel or to stretch out a sore muscle but not at religiously planned intervals.

That's an interesting point and I think that has been true for me, although I never thought of it that way before. I think that little insight is going to be quite helpful! Thanks.

[redhead]

Jennifer, thanks again for your clarification. Much appreciated.

And thank you Nick for your continued support. Your post makes a lot of sense to me too. Because I couldn't maintain the long runs over the past year the HM distance seems like a challenge once more. Perhaps there may come a day when I can take your common-sense approach to running. (Did I just mention Nick and common-sense in the same post?)

One of the main reasons I chose a long HM training plan (24 weeks) for my first half was because it had seven runs that were 18km or over (18-21km). I didn't want the distance itself to be a challenge for the race. Those long runs were great learning tools and gave me a lot of confidence. I'm planning on doing a very similar schedule again.

[La]

I'd be very happy to be able to plan on a walk break every 2-3 km on my long runs in training. That's what I did my first time around, and it seems to tie in quite nicely with the placement of water stations in most big races.

That's what I do now. Water only every 3K and Water/Gu every 6K. And my walk breaks are just long enough to get the water and/or Gu in, adjust clothing, etc., not necessarily one minute. And I'm not really anal with it being exactly 3K/6K - if I'm on a hill (up or down) I'll generally wait until the hill is over before I walk. In a race, it might be a bit sooner/later depending on the actual placement of the water station. It doesn't have to be exact.

[abhainn]

Arlene, can you tell me which 24 week program you are or will be following? I'm thinking that once I'm done my current training plan I will take a month or 2 off to just run for the sake of running and get back on the bike, then transition into another training program to keep myself busy and with some kind of purpose.

[redhead]

Arlene, can you tell me which 24 week program you are or will be following?

Actually I can't point you to the exact plan because it's one I designed BASED on an older RVM schedule that was 24 weeks long. This is their 2009 version ...
http://www.royalvictoriamarathon.com/pdf/RVM-HalfMarathonGotheDistanceProgram2009.pdf
... it's 20 weeks long (not quite the same but has lots of weekly running like the old one and about 6 runs of 18k or longer).

If you want I could share my own schedule (that I made up). I just can't figure out how to copy & paste a Word document that's in table format without getting it all screwed up.

[abhainn]

Arlene, can you tell me which 24 week program you are or will be following?

Actually I can't point you to the exact plan because it's one I designed BASED on an older RVM schedule that was 24 weeks long. This is their 2009 version ...
http://www.royalvictoriamarathon.com/pdf/RVM-HalfMarathonGotheDistanceProgram2009.pdf
... it's 20 weeks long (not quite the same but has lots of weekly running like the old one and about 6 runs of 18k or longer).

If you want I could share my own schedule (that I made up). I just can't figure out how to copy & paste a Word document that's in table format without getting it all screwed up.

I would like to see what you are doing, can I pm you my email?

I don't really plan on running more than 4 days a week as it seems to be working for me. I'm not worried about injuries since I have done months where I was running 5 or more days a week, but the exhaustion factor does come into play, especially if I'm taking a course. I might do alternating weeks where I'll run 5 days, just for some added variety.